Eagledad

You're preaching to the choir Kudu, but I'm sure you are only using my quote for an intro to your point. The struggle for traditional boy run program is not the knowledgeable scout leader working against the system to reach the vision, the struggle is finding the knowledgeable adult with the traditional boy run vision. Barry

>>During the yearly planning session I mentioned to the PLC that as the CC I had zero desire to run a Charter Night like we've been having. I asked them to draw up some plans for one by the boys for the boys.

Yes, but there used to be two seperate WB courses for Cubs and Troops. Now its one generic course for everyone. And there is a lot more written in the leadership manuals of how all the programs work. Its training adults early for future scout program opperations. Its a logical approach to training adults for future responsibilities. Barry

I wonder if that is a council thing, 40% of the participants of the WB courses I staffed a few years ago were female. Barry

>>I wonder if we can blame the lack of Outdoor Skills on the boondoggle of the 70's or not..

During my hay day when I got to talk a few minutes with some person closer to the mountain top, I kind of gathered that they aren't as close a team as we think. We envision a half of dozen folks who are supreme experts with everything in the program. I never got that from them. I got that each person has their own area of expertise and didnt venture too far into the other guys area. They probably assumed they other folks understood their area enough to be consistant with their area, but there wasnt a lot of talk about it. One example is the new SM Fundamentals course put out in 2000 was written by three different people independent of each other in three different parts of the country. Once they finished their part, they sent it to some other indpendent group to combine the three parts into the course. This makes sense to anyone who has taught the course because some of the PowerPoint slides and videos dont match the course contents. Their uniform content is inconsistent through the course chapters. They may have fixed this by now, but it was an annoyance for a few years. What I think is, for what ever reason, inconsistencies are not a high priority if they arent causing expensive problems. They may be on somebodys to do list, but changes are expensive, so why bother until at least the next major update? Barry

Airplane? That is very cool. Who and where is BTSR? We like most of the Colorado and New Mexico camps. They each have different program styles, so a little research is required. Several have excellent high adventure programs, but I'm not sure what you mean by keeping the boys inside the camp boundaries. Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico has a good program with the best backpacking (Pecos wilderness) our troop has ever done. Far better than Phimont. Each crew can customize their trek to as many days as they want, but the treks finish into Camp Frank Rand. Is that what you mean by in the camp boundaries? Another good camp is Spanish Peaks. Our troop has only used their High Adventure side which is backpacking in the Spanish Peaks wilderness. I understand that they have an excellent climbing and rappelling program they will mix into the back packing also, but we just backpacked. The reason our troop has not used their summer camp side is because that they don't have dinning halls. But we like what we saw. Our favorite camp is Camp Alexander. We like it because it is, or was a few years ago, a very boy run style camp. Pressure was more on the activities than the number of MBs. I have not heard anything bad about any of the Colorado camps. As I said, they each have a different style, so some research is required. But we like to visit the mountain camps every 3 or 4 years for a change of scenery from the hot Oklahoma Plans. Barry

We used the position as a leadership development position. The troop QM was responsible for training the patrol QMs so that they kept track of the gear and made sure it was checked back in clean. The QM has the keys to the troop shed and is fully responsible for the locked trailers as well. NOBODY inters the shed or trailer without the QM first unlocking the locks. He is also trained to help drivers hook the trailer to the cars. The QM is fully responsible for what goes in and out of the shed and trailer. Loading and unloading can be chaotic, that is why he is trained to delegate much of the task to the patrol QMs. Each high adventure crew that uses a trailer is required to have a trained QM for loading, unloading and hooking up the trailer. Only QM has the keys, so if he is a little slow getting around, he will here about it. You can see why we like scouts running for SPL to have Troop QM experience on their resume. Barry

>>I agree and wish we could move our Troop from a trailer troop to a Backpack troop. It would make life much easier and possibly less expensive.

>>I do think that creating an "all-backpack" troop is a viable option, but having a trailer does provide options - trunks to summer camp, bikes for a bike trip, flagpoles, axes, dutch ovens, etc.

We learned that multiple small trailers that average size vehicles can pull work better than large trialers that require trucks. Also the the troop isn't forced to use a big trailer when the outting only requires a small one. A high adventure crew outting or patrol campout for example. Barry

Its a new program for all of you, so all of you will be learning as the program progresses. Some things will have to change because they simply aren't working. If you pull the older scouts in and allow them to be part of the group as to what is working and what is not, you won't have any problems. Nothing makes and adult feel more adult than being an integral part of something big. Think our yourself as the team member with more of lifes experiences and enject those experiences into the discussions. Let the group make decisions based from the discussions, not for your position of stature. You don't want their reasoning to the other scouts to be "because the SM says so". What you want is, "we discussed it and this is what was decided". Now it can't always be that way because some of your life experiences will set limits that scouts can't understand. I like to teach that a 12 year old SPL does not have the maturity or experience of the 15 year old SPL. The 15 year old SPL does not have the maturity or experience of a father or husband. You have a lot of wisdom and boys need to learn to respect that. But, what you can do is present your case in such a way that you aren't using stature to force a decision, you are justifying it based from wisdom. Sometimes they are just going to have to trust you. Don't pull that card so much you loose that trust. I found that adults who truely want to develop a boy run program have to learn twice as much twice as fast than the scouts to keep the progrerss moving forward. You might as well learn now that you are are going to screw up a lot. You can either hide those mistakes with pride or learn from them, make changes and move on. Same for the scouts. Learning from failure is internal growth. Before each election, I told scouts that if they were good at a job, they shouldn't try to get the position again. Instead they needed to run for an office where they could grow by the mistakes they make. For the whole program to go forward, everyone needs to learn from their mistakes and make changes to improve. Mistakes are a good thing provided changes are made. You have a lot of work to do, but you will become addicted to the results and want more and more. The nice thing about older scouts is that they know how to have fun. Adults tend to let goals and business get in the way of being a boy. The older scouts can keep the balance if you let them. You are in a very good place right now Barry

>>If the adults in escort on the trip cannot go without the taste of the hop or grape for THREE DAYS, I would suggest they have a different, bigger problem than mere ignorance of the Troop rules, rather written or merrely "understood". I might take them asside and privately, politely, in low key, ask them what's important in their lives, their boy and family, or the beer?

You do have a great opportunity here and Im not sure why you are afraid of the older scouts teaching the younger. Older scouts do enjoy being role models and mentors so long as they dont feel that they are just doing busy work. Go get the SPL hand book for the three of you and read it. Then sit down to discuss and make a plan for the three of you work as a team to make this boy run troop happen. Adults have the power to instill the will of scouts. In just about every troop where the older scouts feel the burden of working with younger scouts there is an adult or adults who gave the scouts that notion. Growth comes from the practice of the scout oath and law. Practice comes from serving those around us and for older scouts, serving the younger scouts develops their growth. But, there is a difference between serving younger scouts and baby sitting them. If the older scouts feel that your goal is to work as a team to help the younger scouts grow into mature older scouts, you will have no problem. If they feel you are dumping off work just to keep them busy, they will loose their respect for you and the other adults. Just start thinking of these 15 year olds as 35 year olds and treat them that way. You will get the response you want. Use the SPL hand book to keep everyone working on the same page so that you all have the same goals. Remember that the only difference between you and the 15 year olds is lifes experiences. And in some cases, they may have more experience in parts of the scouting program than you, be humble and allow them to show you the ropes. Finally it is my experience that 15 year olds are basically set in their ways. More often than not they actually get in the way of troops that are trying to develop a boy run troop if the program is dramatically different from their own. For them to make dramatic changes in their approach to your troop, they need to buy in to the dream or vision. Be a good sales man so that not only do they see the vision, they also feel that its part of their vision. Give them a vision of themselves being noble and leading younger scouts to do greater things. Guide them to be heroes of their world, its every boys dream. And please keep us up and the progress because its fun to watch programs like yours mature and grow. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>If that doesn't fly, I believe we'll likely try to pick up a second ADL (and perhaps a couple of Den Chiefs), and split the den up between opening and closing activites to keep the numbers managable for all the activities...perhaps even run 2 - 3 stations. Any other thoughts appreciated, however.

BP, I think you and SP are saying the same thing. SP just gave less detail. The short answer to the question is No. If the CC is disapointed in the vote, than he or she didn't present the other side well enough to sway the results. Vote again. Barry

Alabama Scouter just described exactly how the Easy Chair adult should work around scouts and adults. I found training adults to do boy run was a lot harder and more frustrating than the scouts. Thorns and roses in the BSA was encouraged for the adults, not the scouts. Backpacking in the mountains is the ideal environment for scouts to learn self discipline, accountability and team work. I teach in scout leader training that the clock is a much better teacher of decision making discipline and accountability than the nagging adults because the clock tells the scout when he has failed without the adult even being near. The afternoon mountain showers work exactly the same way. If the scouts dont get up early and get moving, they will be hiking and setting up their next camp in the rain. If the rains have thunder, they will likely not even reach their next camp. Their gear will get wet and dinner will likely not go well. The one hitch to that clever scheme is the adult who forces the scouts to act on his or her own time clock. Many scouters dont view boys as inexperienced adults, they are instead seen as children who dont take time seriously. Untrained Scouters by nature dont trust that boys can learn from their actions, so they replace natures teacher of being uncomfortable with preemptive direction and rob the scouts of their lesson. The adult is a much better encourager of change when they as just another member of the team standing face to face with the crew leaders in the rain asking for a new plan for tomorrow. I believe there is a no better method of team building and patrol method than mother nature. Laser tag is a close second, but that is a different discussion. When allowed, camping in the back country with mother nature forces leaders to emerge and makes followship noble. Everyone works for the better of the group. Back country treks develop lean confident teams who come home knowing they can conquer the world, but the adults have to let it happen. Barry

>>Once determined it was a simple mistake, you would think it would have been solved.

Philmont does not allow hammocks hung from trees. Been there and done that. Barry

I was surprised to hear this on the news because I have found the agents who check and compare the boarding passes to IDs to be very thorough. AND how did the out dated ticket get by the airline ticket agent? Barry

>>If the field uniform is going to be worn all day, every day, six days a week during summer camp, you'd better have a washing system set up in the campsite ... or else be getting a bulk discount from Supply!>That Alabama troop sounds like a group of Stepford Scouts. Scary.

I think this happens a lot, but most units just let it go. We had the parents of a cub keep about $400 of popcorn money their soned earned. It was a difficult situation because the father was mildly retarded and mom only earned minimum wage. They were also getting federal assistance, so you can understand why we took the family in a year earlier as a charity. The family was very meek, so we weren't even sure they knew what they had done. Money was not a problem for our pack and we let it go. Bary

>>The thing our scouts do not like about Philmont, is that the adults are suppose to sit down, and let the scouts do all the work!

>>(and they do have some disadvantages over folders).

Summer camps are always a fun place to see how other troops choose to wear the uniform, but I found Philmont to be the most interesting because some clothes just dont work for backpacking. We saw several crews who all wore the same class B down top the socks. Then there was the crew that wore Full Class As during their whole trek. I cant think of more uncomfortable clothing for backpacking, but our crew was impressed by those guys. Our crews always wear Class As before and after the treks in a show of pride and bonding, but it seemed extra special after watching that crew. But the crew that gets the best dressed award was a Troop from Alabama that not only wore full BSA issued Class Bs all the way down to wearing the same brand of boots, but they all had the same brands of equipment and gear as well. I mean all their gear like backpacks, sleeping bags, even the pack rain covers were all the same and the same color. Nothing cheap either, all the gear was top quality brands. And every member in the crew used hiking poles. We knew when we were behind them by the millions of tiny little holes poked in the trail. That crew looked pretty impressive and must have cost them a fortune. Our troop isnt always the best dressed troop in the camp, but we generally do make a good presence. I like a good looking uniformed troop, but attitude is also what folks remember about many troops no matter what they are wearing. Showing a good attitude with songs, cheers and jokes also makes the whole experience more fun for everyone as well. Barry