Eagledad

>> First Class within a year are, according to National's stats, far more likely to continue in Scouting (both on to further ranks in Scouting and also to continue later on as adult volunteers).

Humilty and practice.

>>Competition provides the incentive to learn those skills that might never otherwise get used on a campout (as was discussed in a recent thread). Competition fosters comraderie. Competition teaches teamwork. Competition fosters patrol members helping other patrol members.

That may or may not be true (probably is), but I was just giving a history lesson to the this subject of NSPs. The First Class in the First Year program itself change the BSA vision of a values program to a more advancement program. I don't know if the folks at National had that in mind, but it is the result. Barry

A little history here: National back in the 80s decided they wanted to increase the number of Eagles from I think was around 2% of all scouts. The way they chose to do that was the attacking the areas of the program where they lost a lot of scouts, which is the first year Troop Scouts. Even today, more scouts leave the BSA in their first year of the troop program than any other year. I think it has always been that way. But National created the New Scout program with the idea of bringing Webelos in with their friends and then assigning an older scout to help them get used to the troop program hopeing that it would make the first few months in a troop more friendly and easier to adapt. National also had some data the showed them that scouts who made it to the Frist Class rank in their first year typically hung around for several more years. As a result, you are looking at todays New Scout Patrols (NSP) and First Class in the First Year program. Has it worked? Well a few years ago when I compared numbers, they were about the same as around 1990. But, that is the program in the SM Handbook right now as well as the SPL Handbook and that is why so many Troops use the NSP program. Barry

We use both Twocubdad and stoshes styles of controlling bad behavior. One thing I taught our PLC is to always deal with behavior as a team. If one scout is talking while the SPL is talking, the SPL simply ask the PL to take care of it. But if it goes farther than that, you will see another PL or ASPL quietly walk over to help the PL. If that doesn't work, they will escort the scout out of the room or to the SM and let him deal with it how ever he wants. Rarely gets to that point. Our PLCs are taught to just remove the problem and deal with it later. Don't let the problem interupt the schedule, deal with the problem later or hand it off. I guided the scouts to never yell, instead just walk over or delegate someone close by to deal with the problem quietly. Save the Scout Sign to get the group attention. Don't use it to deal with bad behavior because it looses its respect in that regard. BUT, every once in a while you get a scout who just isn't going to take no for answer. I had a couple of scouts who got pleasure using their wit to get adults riled up. I learned a little too slowly that there comes a point when its a parents problem. No threats just hand the phone to the scout to call ask mom to pick them up. Whether at a meeting or campout, hand it off to the parent. In most cases when the problem reaches that point, the boy does not want to be there. It took one scout to threaten another scout with a knife (his best friend) for me to finally get that I can't fix all behaviors. I look back and cringe at all the times I kept trying to get through to the scout when I should have realized quicker it wasn't going to happen. I had the same exact situation as the OP wrote above. The SPL kicked the Quartermaster out in the hall where I was sitting. A little wiser, the scout and I went for a walk. It was a quiet discussion about his behavior, but it only took a few minutes for both us to agree that it was time for him to leave. I got a call that night from mom, turns out she had taken her son off medications and we were dealing with the side affects. You can learn a lot from us here on the forum, but in the real world dealing with behavior really takes practice. Nobody starts out doing it very well. Do the best you can this time and learn from the experience to do better next time. And let the scouts deal with it as far as they can before the adults have to get involved so that they also can use the experience to improve. Eventually the SM won't hear about most of the behavior problems because the scouts have grown quite good at it. Barry

Eagle92 does a good job highlighting the general approach. Im a little different from the others in that I would keep the SPL for two reasons: One, big changes in program generally set a troop back one step before it goes forward two steps. Two, the troop is going to need the SPL in a few months when you get the new scouts, so keep the part of the program consistent and save the hassle of going back and forth. I would however stay with one patrol, skip the ASPL and let the PL be the second in leadership stature. I think the troop needs to have a Troop Leadership Develop course for only those scouts qualified to be leaders (1st Class and above) and actually want to be a leader. While you are in a crises mode right now, you really need to be thinking six months from now. So I personally would push to get your 16, 14, 13 and 12 year old 1st Class scouts trained to work together for the troop six months from now. I know the 16 and 14 year old cant make meetings, but they should be able make a one day four hours Saturday Leadership Development Course. The course needs to be just the basics of running the troop. I would include those four oldest scouts above, the SM and the ASM. When you have a discussion about this at your campout, I would suggest the SM and ASM will be part of the trainees so the scouts can use them as resources. The objective of the Saturday training is to become a team. Get the SPL Handbook for everyone in the Saturday training and use it as the focus for everyone to work from the same guidelines. Dont make drastic changes from your program, but use SPLHB as a reference for when things get confusing or stalled. Again, since both the adults and scouts are using the same reference, you are working as a team, not as adults and scouts. Once the youth side of the program gets their confidence back and can run without the adults (three months?), then you step back out of it. As for the election, well you really need to use your SM skills in pushing for the most qualified scout to be the SPL Im saying the 13 year old really needs to be it because he has more experiences, rank and age. My thinking is six months from now in that since the 14 and 16 year olds will be back in six months, you need your best qualified scout to be the New Scout Guide or TP for the new scouts. Even if you decide to mix the new scouts with your present scouts now and divide the troop into two patrols (that is what I would do), its still good to have one scout who is dedicated in making sure the new scouts are doing OK in the program for their first couple of months. The past SPL is the perfect fit because they have confidence in working with others. You can either call him the TG, or do what our troop did and make him the ASPL. Once the new scouts are settled in, he can go about the ASPL duties. As for your Saturday training, make it only about four hours long. Thats all the scouts can absorb. Provide them pizza and pop for lunch, and a treat like icecream when youre finished. There is a great team building exercise using ice cream if you like. Keep the agenda to basics like how to Lead a PLC meeting, Troop Meeting and Campout. Get the scouts to use very basic agenda for each. I believe the SPL Handbook has sample agendas. Scouts, and really adults as well, only absorb about 20% of what you train, so I learned that what you are really training for is to develop the confidence of getting through the next meeting. Dont train your scouts to get through the next month or next year of program, just get them excited to run the next meeting. Then meet with the SPL or scouts after the meeting and discuss a few ideas to help improve the next meeting. I would suggest the same group who trained together have little 10 minute meetings before and after every Troop and PLC meeting. Become a team. I know the 14 and 16 year olds cant be there much, but you might see if they can at least come at the end of the troop meeting to listen in on how you and the SPL discuss the performance of the meeting and changes to make it better. You want everyone to feel a part of a team working together to be a better troop. Your job is to get everyone to support the other persons responsibilities. The four scouts should be seen as a bonded group who work together. If one scout hassles one of the four, then they will find themselves dealing with all four. That is how all our PLCs work in our troop. Adults should stay back. If all goes well, you guys should be working together pretty good in about three months. That is when I would start discussing how to work with the new scouts who are coming. I know that seems like a complex approach, but Ive been where you are at and it was one of the more successful ways we got out of our situation. And, Im not so proud to think this is the only way to do this, its just one of many. If all goes well in however you do this, you will look back on this in a few months and realized how much fun you and your scouts had working the problem. Your Troop will probably grow in character in the next few months more then it has in the last couple of years. I look forward to reading about your progress. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I observed while I was a CM (before I was a WDL) that the majority of the Webelos typically finished all the AOL requirements within 12 months. But since most packs traditionally present the AOL at B&G, scouts had to wait several months for the AOL presentation and never got to wear the patch. So when I became a WDL, we decided to present the patch as soon as each scout completed the requirements, thus allowing them to wear their AOL patch while they were still in the pack. I saw later that it also motivated the other scouts to hurry up and finish their requirements as well. Barry

It might worth mentioning that the AOL award is the only Cub rank award that a boy wears on all his Scout Uniforms the rest of his life, even as an adult. So that is why it does have some prestige or honor over the other cub awards. That being said, I think Den leaders are very busy people and do the best that they can. I agree that if the DL just wants to present the AOL the same as the other awards, that is fine because there is honor in that. If the DL wants a more prestigious ceremony but doesnt know how, then they can go out and ask for help from folks like us who are just looking for an excuse to have some fun. While I was the Webelos Den leader, I presented all the awards and pins to the Scouts at the following Den meeting they were earned. I like that instant recognition thing. All the parents learned to show up 10 minutes before the end of every den meeting to watch and honor the scouts who received their awards. Then I gave the award cards and mothers pins to the CM to be presented at the Pack meeting so the rest of the pack could honor and witness what the scouts had accomplished. As for the AOL cermony, after all the scouts had earned the AOL, I performed a special presentation at the pack meeting where the scouts recieved an arrow or gift. Barry

The earth moved and I found myself fully agreeing with everything BP wrote. I might add that you should ask the troops tabout heir timeline. Troops today typically plan their annual agenda with crossovers in mind. It can be more disruptive for some troops to take in a large group of new scout a couple of months before or after the standard crossover season of you district. It's no problem for others. Just ask as you visit troops. Barry

This happened with soccer in 80s and even 90sbecause all the schools (high school and college levels) were trying to become more competitive with the limited resources of a fairly new sport. Coaches of new sports are also in high demand because there are so few of them. A lot of European coaches moved to America when soccer was trying to mature. I don't know where to look for Lacrosse coaches. Barry

>>Universal health care is needed, like it or not. OR we need to give hospitals and doctors the right to turn away patients who cannot pay. We have large number of people who can afford health insurance and chose not to have any because they know hospitals and doctors have to take them.

>>I cannot believe that something like this would be a woodbadge project??? Let me take that back, with the type A personalities I met there, I am very sure they would not risk a thing as important as advancement to mere boys. Back off let them work the program as laid out in the book

High school is about the age when a boy realizes if he is good enough to invest the time to compete. Sports are no longer recreation at that age, they are work. Barry

At all ages, boys perceive their next year of scouting to be as enjoyable as this year. If they look forward to scout meetings this year, they will be in scouts next year. If not, well they are just waiting it out the end because that is easier than trying to explain to all the adults why they don't want to come anymore. As for parents, I have always said of Cub Scouting, "make the parents happy and their sons will be happy". Parents don't like hassles. If they have to beg and plead to get their son to the scout meeting, that is a hassle. However, it is rare to hear of a parent not wanting their son to continue scouting when he looks forward to every meeting. How the Webelos perceive their next year is a good indication of how well the program is doing is doing this year. Barry

>>Scout skills have served me well over the past 50 years and to think that GPS is going to ever replace my trusty compass, it'll never happen.

>>Back to my original question, are scouts allowed to bring their own (2-man) tents or prehaps a lighter tarp than those provided by Philmont?

Philmont is a mountain top experience because of the whole program during the trek, not just the trek itself. Philmont also has to contend with 40000 backpackers of all expereinces (or not experiences) every year and that number has its challenges. I honestly don't think that using a tent instead of a tarp is going to degrade your overall experience. It will just make it a little different. There will be other practices at Philmont you or your crew might question as well as far as a typical back county experience, but if you just accept it as part of the Philmont program experience, you will have a great time. There is no other experience like it and Im confident that you will come home wanting to do it again. Barry

>>What troubles me is that more scouts would have liked to have skipped the first year program and actually do something...perhaps they didn't know they could say no. Or they tried and it was disapproved. Very sad.

>>But doesn't that open the program to abuse of the MB's? where is the incentative to be with the same troop? how do you verify the signatures of completed requirements?.

Even if Kudos vision of retesting (not criticizing) became part of the program, I agree with Dan that many of the scout craft skills are difficult to practice because they dont fit with most modern equipment. In fact, this part of the discussion was brought up many times by participants in my Scoutmaster Specific class. I see the solution is either force scouts to use the same equipment I used back in the 70s, or create new scout craft skills such as the proper use of bungee cords and duct tape. By the way, can someone tell me when the No Retesting thing was added to the program? Must have been between the 70s and 90s. No testing made a dramatic change to scouting. Barry

>>Barry, Think I had a rant about training a month or so back! I'm not ready, just yet for another.

>> Shaking one's meaty fist in the air and shouting "I REFUSE TO COMPROMISE!!!" is hardly statesmanship, whether you're talking about a no-tax pledge, preserving government programs as they are, or some other point of view. For that matter, neither is cheering the trashing of America in the world market, but I digress...

>>How difficult has it proven to get leaders to come out for the SM specific training? How difficult is it to get a full roster for Woodbadge?

Are we expecting more from that adults than we train? Should we expect more from the adults than we train? It used to be that the majority of leaders were boy scouts in their youth, I think that has changed a lot. I know the adults I had the most trouble in teaching boy run were the ones that didn't know what boy scouts did other than what they read in the hand books. I do agree with the instant gratification theory because adults in general want to know how well they are performing in most things we do, even as a volunteer. But scoutings goals are long range and its hard to know if we are succeeding in building character after two just camp outs. Unless the adult has the experience of scouting as a youth, it is difficult to understand success three years down the road. Its much easier to be motivated for next month by feeling good about the successes of this month. Does training give adults a good long range vision and the many small, but successful, steps to reaching that vision? I don't know because I came into scouting as an adult with a lot of experience as a youth. But I've said before that adult leaders with a scouting background as a youth are a couple years a head of adults who don't have that experience. And we seem to be getting more and more of those inexperienced adults. Is our training good enough, I don't know. Barry