Eagledad

>>Posted: Saturday, 9/3/2011: 8:53:36 AM quality I have long wondered why we would want something like 'morality' to be dictated to us, as opposed to thinking it through and understanding morality for ourselves.

>>Posted: Saturday, 9/3/2011: 8:53:36 AM quality I have long wondered why we would want something like 'morality' to be dictated to us, as opposed to thinking it through and understanding morality for ourselves.

>>If they look like everybody else, then they must be acting like everybody else in public. So they are no more modeling anything gay than you or I.

>>My Point is how do you know for sure???????? Mmmm, really? I think your point overall is why should people even care at all. Most of us agree that even now there are likely gays mentoring our kids in the BSA. What you really want is general acceptance for them publically role model a gay lifestyle to our sons. I'm not talking about crude behavior that shouldn't be displayed in public, just a quick peck on the cheek from a partner saying good by before leaving on a week long summer camp trip should be acceptable. I don't accept that it nobodies business because its all about sex in the bedroom. Even the homosexual community calls it a lifestyle. Barry

The way this discussion is going, peer pressure could be defined as hazing. Barry

I hear what you are saying evilleramsfan, but I don't think its about sex, its about morality. Parents don't need to hear about the details of the Scoutmaster's private sex life to learn of his/her moral values. They only need to meet the spouse, or umm, friend at the the next COH dinner. I think that is really what the issue is about. Barry

>>I gotta giggle here. years ago watched an episode of scout park that had a gay scoutmaster who had been in the position for years, boys loved him and the troop ran great. Well he got kicked out for being gay, they bring in a drill instructor kinda guy who was a whole lot less fun and took pictures of the boys less than fully clothed.

Yes I completely agree for families and friends who want their son to learn about their specific religion. But that is not the responsibility of a mentor of boys of several different religions. The mentor guides the boy torward God, but not so much to influence him in conflict with his family. I'm not saying we shouldn't use personal examples, but it's a way of opening a scouts eyes without adding blinders at the same time. Barry

Yes I completely agree for families and friends who want their son to learn about their specific religion. But that is not the responsibility of a mentor of boys of several different religions. The mentor guides the boy torward God, but not so much to influence him in conflict with his family. I'm not saying we shouldn't use personal examples, but it's a way of opening a scouts eyes without adding blinders at the same time. Barry

>>I am so happy my God is kinder.. My God tells me to respectfully disagree with their God.

True, but my wife is the first to say that I struggle with conflict and put it off as long as I possibly can. You can be assured that in my mind "he's out-a-here". Barry

>>I am amazed at the prejudice and hate from a group of scouters.

Kudu's explanation works well because it gives the scout permission to continue his scouting experience and discover his personal reverence. I once gave a Chappell service like this at Wood Badge. I call it the Wow Factor. "Wow!" being the reaction of a Scout who suddenly sees all the valleys and mountains 50 miles upon reacing a mountain peak, or watching mountain thunder shower five minutes away driving toward him. You cant predict when it will happen, but there are events that can force a scout to want an explanation in their awe of the moment. Same with my explination of referencing the Scout Law. It is a broad reference that allows the scout to seek his on reverence from how we participate in the world that changes everyday of his perspective. I dont really agree with BadenP that it can be explained by relating personal experiences. Oh Im sure that helps some scouts, but I still find that approach limiting the scouts experiences that can influence his reverence. All that being said, I also agree that both the Scout and his parents need to understand that atheist cannot earn rank. Unless he changes his mind, scouting is only about the journey for him, which may be just fine. Barry

>>" Come-on, who doesn't know? " People who have yet to have their sons recruited or who have yet any experience wit BSA.

>>So, while I am not taking sides on what the policy is...I completely and totally see where people are surprised by BSA when they later are ejected or find out about somebody else getting ejected by BSA for being homosexual.

>>They asked me and I told them not to ask, as that's sexual harassment.

God is the source of the 12 points of the law. Only through a higher source can all humans be equal. Barry

Hi Tampa I know you asked Beavh, but Ive had a little experience in the area of your question. I have seen this style of elections work very well with the SPL position. Usually the SPL was a one year term. The election gives the ASPL six months to get up to speed and step right in. I have not seen it done with the APL, but I cant see why it wouldnt have the same result provided the APL is mature enough to be the PL. The problem would be in younger troops where the APL may not have enough experience to be a PL. Ideally the APL has experience in most of the other patrol positions and is one step away from the PL. But, no matter the patrols maturity, the elected APL is certainly on notice that he will take over in six months and should use the time wisely to learn the ropes. The only disadvantage to that style of selecting leaders is that the Patrol doesnt seem to have the option of re-electing the present PL. Kind puts the APL in a bad spot. It wasnt a problem for the SPL because his time in position is a year and most SPLs are ready for a break then, and usually the ASPL was accepted by the troop. Barry

We tried all this ideas and the most fun our cubs have is riding bikes. Adults keep the herd under control, but they enjoy it enough that they can't wait for next year. Barry

No, I would not veto his appointments, but I would make sure they feel the full brunt of their responsibilities. I can't place my finger on it because you are a really good SM twocub, but there is something missing in your program if the scouts think they can get away with appointing unqualified scouts into positions that require some maturity. Maybe the troop just hasnt grown enough yet because its young, but at some point, the scouts will need to respect the positions that drive the quality of their program. They need to be concerned that bad leaders means less fun and more work. As our troop matured, our scouts got better at not only building a good leadership corp., but also pushing younger scouts into positions that would develop their skills for the long future. Our SPLs got older and more mature and several ran for the position more than once. I believe that happen because we not only made sure they had true leadership responsibilities, but also because we let them feel the true repercussions of their performance. As the younger scouts see the true hard work to a POS, they wait until they feel ready. Being a leader in the troop needs to have honor. One of the ways that happens is by how you treat your leaders and by how you hold them especially accountable for living the Oath and Law. They should hear from you a lot that they are the role models of the troop. How they act gives permission to every scout to how they can act. They need to know that you really believe it and because of that, they will learn that you are quick with both public praise and private guidance. Its part of your job and theirs. They need to understand the secret to a good program starts with a firm foundation. They are the foundation. I remember once listing to a PL respond to a patrol mate jealous of the coke he drank during a PLC meeting. On campouts our PLC meets every night to discuss the next days agenda and I usually provide a cooler of soft drinks and snacks. When the young scout made a big deal about this to the PL, he walked by without changing his expression and only said, Trust me, we earn it. We have 30 minute PLC meetings before each Troop meeting instead of a monthly PLC meeting and I always brought pizza. I want to say its a reward, but really it was my of showing respect. Thanks guys, you are the best. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The Dennis the Menace cartoon last Saturday showed Dennis in his Cowboy hat and boots walking with his dog and telling ol Ruff that when he becomes a cowboy, Ruff will be his prairie dog. I cant think of a better way to show the spirit of a boy because they are dreamers who see themselves as adventures, heroes, and stars. They have visions of being better than they are now and see the world that way as well. They know what the world should be and how we should fit in that world. What I like best about the scouting program is that if the adults are willing, a boy can live out his dreams in the program. He only needs a little encouragement now and then to keep his train of thought. The most challenging part of teaching adults of how to develop citizens of character and leaders of integrity is impressing to them how easily adults can mess it up. Its the simple things you know, listen more and talking less. Stand behind instead of in front. Allowing a new idea when the old habit seems easier. Eventually all boys crash into the realities of life. But I dont think it should be the adult leaders who should replace a boys innocence with cold facts of life because just maybe the boy found a better way. Badon Powell had a dream of world peace through scouting. I know he was thinking about the Dennis the Menaces of the world when he started toward that dream. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We had our own storm three weeks ago in Oklahoma City where 85mph winds took down two of my big oaks. I cut the trees into fireplace size logs and stacked along side the road with a plan of finding someone needing firewood and willing to haul it off. But no worry, I came home from work to find all the stacked logs in the neighborhood gone. I guess they did us a favor, but I really would have rather chosen the recipient of my oak because I'm sure it will be sold at a nice profit. And, they still left the rest of the tree branches stacked 8 feet high. Barry

>>IMO, an organization that builds character would teach "do the right thing" and an organization that builds leaders would lead by example and show how to right the wrongs.

I felt my first earthquake six months ago in Oklahoma City. It was more of one big bump than the series of shakes that I see on the news or movies. Since I'm not used to quakes, I ran outside to see if a plane had crashed at the airport across the street. Barry

I'm saddened that the write up is looked as old school or nostalgic. Maybe its because cooking is becoming a lost skill that it's being recognized as a primary means of building teams, self confidence, and even character. Could be what this discussion really exposes is that we are loosing the art of patrol method. While preparing meals and KP is an excellent method of patrol method, its not the only method. Do scouters understand the applications and benefits of patrol method? For our troop, summer camp has always been about improving our patrol method habits and skills, not about advancement. Of course we push fun first and advancement second to the scouts, but for the goals of developing growth in character, we purposly are pushing the scouts to function as a patrol 24 hours day for about eight days. We do this also on regular camp outs, but 8 days of living together at a more intense pace pushes everyone outside their comfort zone where the Scout Law really has to come into play for everyone to mold as a team. Experts say that a group needs at least 36 hours of working together to gain a benefit of growing as a team. That works out well for weekend campout. But summer camp just adds that little extra stress to polish a patrol. It also can break it as well. But I think my original point is that many if not most adults don't quite understand the real objective of using patrol method to apply it better and more efficiently and effectively way of developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity.. The scouting game is a fun way of teaching scouts how to react to stress using the Scout Law. That is really the basis of it all. The behavior habits they learn in scouting should be carried with them the rest of their lives. Are we short changing our scouts when they dont cook breakfast or the adults cook for the scouts? Cooking and clean up should be complex enough that almost the whole patrol is required to get it completed in the limited time given. That is the old way and I think what the write up was all about. Good discussion. I love this scouting stuff. Barry