Eagledad

That is rare, but the way it should be. How do you rate your commissioner corp.? Barry

Good point. The reason for the mistrust is because most of the actions unit leaders see from commissioners has the perception of authority. Right or wrong, commissioners are perceived as disciplinaries for the districts. Most participants of adult leader training classes express that a major benefit of the classes is making new friends. How many of those participants or teachers are commissioners? Commissioners don't mingle enough within the activities to build a friendship and trust. If we choose to recruit experienced scouters for the role of commissioners, then they need to show their skills to units to build a trust as a resource. Theoretically, commissioners are also supposed to be trainers. But, we don't see that much these days, mostly because the district committee chairs aren't trained well and don't work together. Ironically that is the part of the duties of the District Commissioner. We could go blame scouters responsible for neglecting their duties, but we have to step back and remember they are just volunteers. If we want the right person for the right job, we need to get better at recruiting. Something most district are poor at doing. Barry

Your opinion is certainly just an opinion. As an engineer who has to think logically every day in big pictures to work problems, your opinion doesn't makes sense because you don't have any information, proof, or data to show that your theory is killing scouting. None. There are a lot of dynamics going on in the world, culture, and BSA, at the moment, so how could anyone determine what is killing scouting? Or if scouting is even dying.; Sure, the BSA is taking hits right now, but can we really say that is the result of actions within the BSA. The world is in a mess and a lot of organizations are trying to get back to some kind of normal. And, I can certainly give a good argument for much of the membership loses before the pandemic and law suit. But are my arguments valid at the moment of the pandemic and the litigation process? The pandemic has forced new and different approaches to scouting activities. But, that in of itself describes a struggle to survive If you want to keep pushing you theory that Youth Protection must change to fix the out-side-worlds perception of the BSA, then my logical approach is describe the problem in a detail that we can make logical decisions. We have to know what to fix before we can discuss fixes. From my professional experience, we need details of how the victims found themselves in situations where they weren't protected. We look for trends and then discuss how Youth Protection needs changing. Barry

I think you would find the discussion surprising. When we were involved chaperoning, attending and transporting youth in church, school, sports and so on, we found their youth protection polices very limiting compared to the BSA youth protection, if they had any guidelines at all. Often the on the spot ad-hoc policies came from scouters who were used to the BSA youth protection. My wife was always the most nervous youth getting hurt when she chaperoned the annual school group to New York City. But the teacher who led that activity many times took the concern in stride because she never had a problem in the dozen of so years she took the groups. I can't think of a single youth organization that has the level of guidelines the BSA gives to their units. Schools are terrible with field trips and rely a lot on adults (parents) to keep track of the students. Church camps surprise me on their lack of policies. We struggled with teenagers hiding in the woods to steal a kiss, but I understand that drugs is a huge problem today. I'm sure they are getting better. Our church wanted to improve transportation safety and the committee went strait to the BSA troop adults for suggestions. Even the attempts on this form to discuss youth protection improvements don't go very far because they are pretty good. Maybe because policies against predators are difficult. Of what I've been told, predictors are opportunist looking for a weak spot. The weak spot may be nothing more than ignorance of the average parent. I'm not sure why LDS is being highlighted, did they follow different policies than the BSA youth protection on their scouting activities. I know the troops in church COs around here follow the BSA guidelines. In fact, I know that the LDS around here did as well. I understand that some sports associations are requiring background checks on the coaches, maybe churches are doing it as well. Don't you wonder how many of these incidents occurred by adults who had a background check. If we are trying to fix a crack in the youth protection system, we need to understand the crack better. Where are these incidents occurring? Barry

My experience is adults who limit their program from typical scouting activities did not have a scouting experience as a youth. They see these activities, especially outside unit activities, as competition, not as additional program opportunities. They likely would not want their orders scouts to join a Venturing Crew either. And I agree, likely this is a pretty adult run program. Barry

Im not thinking competition, or judging, or potluck. I’m thinking adults get together to cook the meal. We did this at a trooperee where the adults roasted a whole pig. It’s an all day job. You could have several shifts where each member of the shift is from a different troop. There are adults that love that stuff. Barry

We have had the troop adults cook the Saturday night meal for everyone. But, you could also do training for swimming, rappelling, boating and so forth. Fun stuff that would pull all the adults into the same group. Barry

Yes, stated very elegantly. We want the scouts to see who they are through their actions and decisions in scouting activates. Then compare their character to the character they want to have and make a purposeful choices to develop habits of that character. Parents do it all the time. Just about every parent can give examples of how the experiences of raising their first kid motivated them to raise their other kids differently. That is scouting. The struggle is getting adults to see that noble mission. Thanks again qwazse. Barry

Well this is just off the top of my head, but unity comes best from stressful situations that require the team to function together. OA Ordeals use to be pretty good at that. Barry

I didn't say no adult association. Every unit is different with the different accumulated gifts of the participants. As you said, the methods are not discrete functions. But, I believe all things being equal. the experience of the Patrol Method has more influence for growth than adult association. Especially with mature scouts. My style was the passive approach of mentoring. I found that for us, scouts grew faster when they had to search for relief from the stress of making decisions. The mentors were in the shadows waiting. Barry

I agree the culture of parents today is more challenging. I'm not sure that it is a nomadic thing, but it certainly is there. Still, even the worst helicopter parents joined Cub Scouts because the program's activities are attractive. The problem isn't the activities, it's the overbearing weight of program management. Barry

I'm talking about the bigger picture of the mission of developing character. Growth is based on the experience of making decisions, not watching role models. Role models are reinforcement of what is learned from the Patrol Method experience. Barry

And who determines a persons BAD character? That is the what MattR is talking about. Yes, scouting builds character, but how. And while I agree, role models of good character contribute to building good character, a good Patrol Method experience is the main driver of growth, even among role models of bad character. Patrol Method forces the scout to make decisions for other scouts that reflects their character back at them. Now, try to explain how that works to a new parent. And really I should say mothers, because fathers more often accept the fun of the outdoors program without getting caught up in that complexity of the character thing. Mothers, most of the time, are less attracted to the shiny object of fun (except for the Eagle), so they spend time analyzing (being skeptical) character development. Moms forced me to understand how the program worked toward character. Dads forced me to sit and enjoy the coffee. Barry

I can see that Matt. But, I believe the how of the vision has always been a challenge for scouting. How can a program build character. Luckily, the fun part (outdoors and camping) are the over riding attraction. I learned over the years, that the vast majority of scouts join the program because their' parents motivated them to join. And, 99 percent of them started in cubs. My issue with the BSA is that they are driving youth away because the cub program burns out the adults. Last I checked, around 50 percent of Webelos don't crossover into a troop after graduating from the pack. That doesn't include the younger cub age dropouts or the first year scouts who joined but never went to a troop meeting. I believe that at least 80% of those youth left because of their parents. Parents didn't push them to leave, but they didn't encourage them to stay either. What I'm saying is I don't think the nomadic culture is a problem today, I think yesterdays overburdened Cub program steels the illusion of fun from the adult perspective and they loose any enthusiasm of it for their kids. I got this from interviewing hundreds of adults. Barry

I'm kind of lost in this thread, are posters here suggesting that the BSA needs to mold itself to each individual post-modern nomad youth to have a successful appeal? What then is THE goal, THE vision, THE mission? My high school teacher son says he learned how to approach his students (post-modern nomads?) from his scouting experiences 20 years ago. Help make this clearer for me. Barry

Yes, it is difficult. The struggle even for commissioners is knowing when to give unit leaders some rope to make their program. We had a very good commissioner with a lot of experience, but he wasn't as boy run as I wanted the our program, so we had some difficult discussions. However, he always let me try my ideas to see how they worked out. Every leader has a different vision and style, so the commissioner has to have some patience. to know when to guide, or just watch. Commissioners need to be good at understanding the program and the BSA Guidelines for running the program. Units get in trouble when they make up their own rules and guidelines, so the commissioners need to inform and correct to keep units within boundaries. Our commissioner shined with committee and their functions. His Scoutmaster experience gave him the knowledge to know how to balance the program for, and with, the Scoutmaster. I believe success with commissioners starts with a good District Commissioner because they are the teachers and mentors of the commissioners. Start with that person, the rest will follow. It's nice to hear about units who get lucky with getting good commissioners, but we want to hear the bragging of districts with a good commissioner corp. Barry

Thanks I ran into one of my Eagle scouts a few years ago. He had two kids by that time. I don't remember how we got on the subject, but he told me that one of my SM Minutes made a big difference in life and probably why he got his Eagle. The story I told was similar to this one, a hero that made a difference. I learned over the years that boys dream of being hero's. I don't know if girls have the same dreams because I don't remember my daughter running around pretending to be hero so much as she pretended to be the princess. I taught in the adult courses that the better troops are the ones where scouts have the freedom to live their dreams. I can't say that my Eagle scout was trying to be a hero, but he says the hero was part of his motivation. Not only should we encourage the troop to be a place to live dreams, we should give more examples of heros. Not just military heros, but heros of culture, heros of character and heros of humanity. Boys want to be heros, we can show them how. Thanks again RememberShiff Barry

The program focuses on a source of morality, but beating over the head is dependent on the unit leaders. If that is your experience, then your CO is probably religious and has a higher priority on religion. But, most units, even religious ones, don't beat it over the heads. No, that is living a servant life. Not the same thing. The spirit, god, God, rock, or whatever is the source. That doesn't mean a scout will connect the oath and law to a spiritual life, most don't. The program develops a servant habits, which are habits of a ethical and moral lifestyle. The scout will have to eventually give credit to the source. Why? I would guess 80% of Eagles (80% of adults) are in that very place at age 18.. And, what if the Eagle decides to be an Ashiest after a time? He had the experience, was a great scout and set a good example for other scouts, He just couldn't make the connection to scout spirit and god. By the way, I know several Eagles who turn atheist as adults. Each one told me they wished they could be a leader, but they didn't want to set that kind of example. I find that very much in the Scout Spirit. Barry

Funny thing is membership exclusion is really about adults. I had numerous scouts who either one or both parents where ashiest or gay, but they wanted their kids to make that decision on their own when they had some life's experiences. Scouting was part of the life's experiences they wanted for their kids. When the gay activist started to target the BSA, they found quickly they weren't getting any traction with petitioning gay adults. So, they changed tactics and used gay scouts as their target, which worked. But, it was the adults the program didn't want anyway. A program with the principles of giving youth an experience in developing the habits of morality has to present itself on the bases of morality. Most, if not all, scouters I knew had no trouble with scouts who weren't sure about god experiencing the scout program. It's only activist who turned that around and demonized scouters. But, I don't see god being optional in a moral themed program. Barry

First off, I'm not cutting out text to change the narrative. Seems we need to say that these days. Two questions come to mind with your post qwazse. First, my observation is that parents for 90 percent of the scouts make the choice for the kids to join scouting. So, I'm wondering how fits in your theory. Second, while I can see the idea of a Federation of Scouting happening, I think that is many years down the road. A lot more options for girls than boys at this moment. A good group of visionary professionals could get this ball rolling in the BSA. But, I haven't seen good professionalism from National in the last 30 years. Your idea will have to come from somewhere else. Leaving the discussion kind of back to Eagle1993's perspective. Barry

That's an interesting suggestion. Barry

Hmm, you only have to look at the Canadian Scouts to see how total inclusion will effect the membership numbers. Last I heard was that Canadian Scouts was at 40% to 50% of the organizations membership before going total inclusive 20 years previous. Your post suggest that a total inclusive program would have little effect on the core principles that drive the BSA Vision and Mission. But as others have mentioned, religion is a core principle of the BSA program. Looking at the Canadian Scouts, giving up on some core principles will not improve membership. much. In fact, the risk is membership will likely fall even more. So, is increasing membership really that important? Or is the desire really just having a totally inclusive youth program? That is not to say we shouldn't discuss these things, but maybe the discussion should consider what sacrifices folks are willing to accept to be more inclusive. Barry

I'm not sure what you mean, and maybe you aren't in a good position for a pragmatic discussion anyway. From the very beginning of this thing, most of us knew the BSA would pay. It's a litigious society. But, the question of, does the BSA organization deserve the blame, will be a popular discussion topic for a long time. It's a gnat the size of an elephant. And by the way, I don't cut off parts of text for some kind of advantage. Not my style. I respond honestly to what I think the poster is saying. If I misunderstood the poster, I'm mature enough to admit my mistake. I desire an honest discussion and respect honest contributions. Some folks get annoyed at me because I call them out when I think they aren't being respectful, or truthful. I only cut off text to highlight the specific part of the quote to which I am responding. Barry

"the court and laws are holding them accountable to a standard of negligence and violation of their duty to care, hire, protect, and, etc." Yes, that. Strang! You sure are taking big swipes at that gnat. My post was just a general explanation for why so many want the discussion. "hurtful or harmful about upping the ante with YPT and YP efforts". What? Barry