Eagledad

>>The grubmaster makes the menu and collects the money, the trip planner recruits the drivers. Again, the boys should be doing this if they aren't all ready

Den meetings for us. Barry

This is a great subject and a worthy discussion. I found myself struggling to define boy run when I became the District Membership Chairman while at the same time the passionate Scoutmaster of a boy run Troop. Our district had 19 troops at the time and virtually every one of them was by their adult leaders definition a boy run program. We had one boy run troop that struggled to hold on to a dozen scouts every year as well as a SM. On the other end was a boy run troop 180 scouts strong that required every first year scout to attend a MB class before every troop meeting until they earn a minimum number of badges. As the membership chairman, I was responsible for the quality of the membership recruitment of each unit, so I got to observed most of the 19 troops pretty close to learn how their programs performed. What I learned from them over the years is that boy run is defined within the abilities and limitations of the adults providing the program. Fro example, while most adults admit that a boy scouting experience develops character, few can really explain why. Can you? Many other adults could write how-to books for scouts who want to be Eagle by age 14 and many other adults are experts of living out of a back pack. Each of those adults manage a boy run program. Are they wrong in their definition? You need to ask their scouts. I been a little frustrated in past years when I read on this forum from scouters who vilify adult leaders because they dont run their boy run troop under the same definition as their own. One scouter here has gone so far as to call those adults of which he disagrees bullies. While I have a much defined idea of a boy run program, God balance my criticism of other adults by putting me in the position of measuring the satisfaction of scouts in other troops. And while I admit membership can have broad definitions of performance, I through other scouting activities was able to personally speak with scouts from other troops and learn how they felt about their troop. I found that while their troop may not function under my personal definition of boy run, the scouts still enjoyed being involved in their boy run troop. And while I felt and still feel that our troop boy run program is the best at developing leaders, I had the pleasure of working many outstanding youth leaders from other troops. After three years of being a membership chairman, I traded some of my pride for humility and drew a lot more respect for adults just willing to take on the task of guiding our sons toward the goal of making moral decision based from the Scout Law. Most didnt even know that was what they were supposed to do, but the scouts and their families didnt care. The scouts wanted to be part of that troop. I concluded that families really do need to shop for the troop that fits their style. Some families need more security on campouts than our boy run program is willing to provide. Some need more promise of advancement and some families want a lot of out door activities. Some just want merit badge resources. Our they really that far off from boy run? Thats not to say that I didnt give advice and guidance to struggling troops seeking help to develop a better boy run program. Hey, if they asked, I am a willing passionate boy run expert who wants to share the wealth. But lets face it, arent we all basically ignorant parents volunteering to work with your sons? Are we supposed to be experts boy run leaders? Well ok I am an expert, but Im still not sure about Kudu or Beaveah. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well done, you have made sure your guys will have a lot fun. It's important to understand that most of your cubs will remember this race for the rest of their lives. We don't think about that much as adults, but every step of the race from check into the awards presentation should be performed with the greatest respect for a young boys sense of adventure. Many of your scouts have lost sleep thinking about their space derby flying 1000 mph on race night. Oh how I love that cub scouting stuff. Barry

Some adults today believe boys have a right to being in OA whole others believe that they have to earn it. The situation for each SM is explaining and justifying what they believe to those who don't agree with the results. My explination was that during my time as a youth in scouts, only 2 scouts from each troop of a each minimum age 14 could be voted by the scouts to be a candidates for OA. Arrowmen back then were the best of the best and held in higher esteem than Eagles. The problem Scoutmasters face today is that the number of scouts who don't get selected are in a minority and stick out. When I was a scout, the winners where the minority which allowed each individual looser to hide in the majority. Somethings just shouldn't have changed. Barry

>>But when you see it works, the change is worth it.

Its kind of hard to really see your situation because I think a lot of it is based from the emotions of what you want as a SM and what you are getting. Let me just say that old scoutmasters hanging around a little too close is common. You are certainly not the first. That being said, it really is your move on how you want to go forward. The other folks are happy with the present situation because nobody is forcing them to accept something different. As a SM, I had a very strong presence in our troop as do most Scoutmasters in most successful troops. The SM replacing me recognized his challenge and asked me out to lunch about three months before he took over. He knew two years before that he was the next SM and Im sure he was concerned that my presence would prevent him from being the kind of SM he want to be. He told me at the lunch that I was a tough act to follow, and he felt he needed some space to develop confidence to be a good SM. He politely asked me to step away from the troop meetings for six months so he could get his feet planted as SM of our troop. I think what he asked took great courage. You have a choice, either get used to the way things are and not be frustrated by them, or confront those things that are frustrating you and find a resolution. Personally I think a good SM must be ambitious and bold because no matter how the troop performs or what the scouts get from the program, the SM will be held responsible. Lets face it, the SM is the gatekeeper of the vision for the program. If the SM isnt the gatekeeper or protector of the vision, then who is? The job requires a somewhat aggressive person. However I also feel the SM must be the MOST humble person in the room. The SM sets the example of doing what is right for the scouts. The SM must have the presence of being noble for protecting the scouts from all other outside interference. A good SM will admit when they are wrong. In fact a good SM will admit they are wrong more than they are right. Thats OK because a ship requires many corrections to reach its destination. If you are to contribute to the program and you want to be the SM, you need to shape it so that the program fits your style. But if you are unwilling to do that without confronting those interferences that are holding your vision back, maybe you arent right for the job. At the same time your previous SM sounds like a pretty good guy. He sounds like a valuable resource and partner for the program, but at least for right now, not as ASM. I imagine that if you approach him frankly with the respect he deserves, he will not only agree with you, but help you as best as he can. As I said, your situation isnt new, but you will have to figure out if you are willing to do what it takes to make the changes so that you can be the SM you think you can be. If not, than you need to except the situation for what it is and serve with a happy heart. I wish luck on your decision, Scoutmastering is extremely challenging and extremely rewarding. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well I agree with Kudu that program is the number one cause of success, at least it is for us. Let me restate that, outdoor advemture and camping is the key to our program. I also think the boy run part or our program contributed a lot to our success. But one may be a result of the other. So if you can compare advancement to outdoors program, that would be some useful data. But, it could be hard to see because a fun outdoor adventure program will lead to scouts participating in more troop activities, includeing advancement. Keep up the good work gathering data, we all can benefit from what you learn. Barry

>>This event just might possibly be the single coolest recruiting event for the troops that I have ever seen. Far better than Scout show put on each year, and more impressive than recruiting drives.

This is my favorite derby as well, space derbies only require a potato peeler to carve the shape and they are easy to paint as well. Its much more about looks than speed for the scouts. But Space Derbies take better planning to run a lot of rockets in an evening. We had a lot of dads around for winding the rocket propellers to keep things moving. I think the secret with rubber bands is having a lot of spares and refitting as they break, which happens a lot. As for why some do better than others, its all about "Weight". Usually the lightest derbies will be in the finals. But the races also depend a lot of the rubber bands. Barry

I admire you Tampa for trying to use Troopmaster as a tool to gain insight in your programs progress, but I think it doesnt provide near enough data. Weve discussed in the forum that National acquired data thru the 80s that showed scouts who earned first class in one year was more likely to stay in the program several years. That data motivated National to start the FCFY program we have today. What the data didnt show was if the troops where scouts earned first class in one year were just better programs. I found that scouters with limited experience tended to judge their program success by the number of new scouts and ranks. The more experience scouters tended to look less at direct numbers and more about program quality. Both are valuable trends to follow, but there are too many independent variables that can affect each unit. Our troop averaged between 20 to 30 new scouts a year the ten years I was there, which sounds really great on paper. But we were also loosing more than 50% of those new scouts in their first six months the first few years of our program. It was interesting that council was impressed with our growing numbers because as long as your new scout numbers are higher than the out going scout numbers, you look good on paper. However, we saw the huge loss of new scouts as a big problem and worked to improve the overall program. The irony is we wanted to stay a small boy run troop. By fixing our short comings we lost fewer scouts, but we also became the bigger troop that we didnt want. Watch out what you wish for, you may get more than you expect. Barry

>>If done correctly, the learning curve will be cut expotentially.

Really Sixe of troop doesn't have as much to do with it as one would think. The transition to boy run toes time because everyone is learning, especially the adults. Boy run is a lot harder for adults than adult run because adults work with each scout individually instead the group as a whole. It's a lot easier to tell the whole troop to wear the full uniform than mentoring each scout individually the value of making the right decision based on expectations and guidelines. Truth is that developing the skills to mentor scouts takes a lot of practice and humility. Humility leads to wisdom. It takes years. Also scout maturity develops only as fast as the adults give the them the freedom to make mistakes and learn from the mistakes. Letting scouts go on their own and then being there to guide their growth is a skill that takes time to develop. Barry

>>Gunny: 5 year transition?? Is it really gonna take that long Scouters??

We had two simple ideas of how to become more boy run; 1. Get the scouts so that if the adults didn't show up, the troop would run the same. 2. If there was something in the program we didn't trust the scouts to do without the adults, train them. Teach them, trust them, let them go. Human nature is to learn from the freedom of experience. The problem you and most of us face is our scouts freedom is limited by the adult fears. That means the adults have to learn more faster than the scouts so that we get out of the way. We have to learn how to let them go! Exmple: You say the adults don't trust the SPL to run the PLC meeting. So let's train him to ease your fears. Teach him to use a simple meeting agenda at every meeting. Something like: 1. Open meeting with last meeting minutes. 2. PL reports 3. Old business 4. New business 5. SM closing And keep it very simple to get the habits developed. Add more to the meeting by training the SPL as he gets more confident. Small step. Get the other adults out, or at least out of direct vision of the SPL. They intimidate the SPL and they are tempted to jump in. Only the SM speaks if an adult must speak and that is by permission of the SPL. Remember, the goals is acting without the adults. The SPL should be able to run a meeting from his agenda without any adults by his forth month. Of course there is a lot to running smooth meetings, but that requires A LOT of small steps over the years as the scouts mature. Evauate the program like this. If you don't trust the scouts with freedom without adults in anything the do, tran them. It's your fear that holds them back, not theirs. Fix your problem. It's takes lots of little steps, but training the scouts to be independent takes time for both the adults and scouts to develop. Once the adults learn how to recognize where training is needed and develop teaching and letting, your boy run growth will go faster than the adults can keep up. Good luck and get ready, a true boy run program is a lot of fun for everyone. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

If by chance you take a wrong turn and end up near Oklahoma City, visit the Cowboy Hall of Fame. Then give me a call, I would enjoy taking you and Mrs CambridgeSkip out to dinner. Barry

>>I beleive First Class First year is a good goal

>>That organization stole my soul when I was a kid and planted it in the wilderness. I was too young to resist their clever sales pitch built around hiking and camping trips. And their system of rewarding accomplishments with higher ranks and colorful merit badges meant, in effect, there was always one more goal to reach, one more mountain to climb"........

>>I used a small trick that helped. If I was talking to my son, I called him by his name. If I was talking to the role, I called him SPL. He would do the same, leading to some fun exchanges.

I hate MBUs, but if the district was going to insist on doing them, here is what I proposed for our MBU if I were to run it: 1.Run a District MB counselor training and MBU information day one month before the MBU. 2.MBU is two consecutive Saturdays, 1 hour 30 minute classes. 3.Troops would receive the MBC approved list to give their scouts two weeks before the first Saturday. 4.Scouts would arrive between 7:00 to 9:00 pm Friday before the first Saturday to meet counselor, sign up for class, and fill out blank MB Card. 5.Scouts will not be permitted to attend class without a filled out MB Card signed by Scoutmaster. 6.There is no promise of completion of requirements by the end of course. My plan was turned down, so I didnt accept leading it. Our MBU was a total nightmare. Ignoring the normal steps scouts are supposed to perform when signing up for a MB like calling and filling out paperwork, the scouts were also required to stay at MBU from 8 am until 5 pm even if they only wanted to take one class. They were required to buy lunch, even if they only signed up for one class. This made for a lot of behavior issues with scouts who didnt want to stay all day and we must have had 20 adult volunteers walking the halls. School wasn't this strict. Add the hours and hours of work trying to get boys signed up two weeks before and collecting dues, it was a huge mess. I wanted to change it completely to where the scouts do the work to find the counselor, fill out the required paper and show up only for the classes they wanted to attend. And the district would get an updated counselor list each year at the MB Counselor training. Barry

After reading your last post Scoutfish, I think I have a better understanding of your question. You are looking at your FCFY schedule as a BSA document for getting the best performance from your scouts. I dont think there is a BSA offical or BSA suggested FYFC schedule. I could be wrong, but I think the one you are trying to follow is likely a Troop FCFY schedule, which is OK. Your troop has likely developed the schedule for their own annual program and camping schedule. I dont know that we really can answer your question for your troop program, we can only say how we do it in our own troop. There are some really good replies to your question. If you could ignore for a moment the schedule part of your question, read and try to understand more the philosophical reasoning folks are giving you about the advancement part of the program and how it fits in the whole of the program. I do understand that you have to look at the program from the face presentation of it because you dont have enough experience to look at it from the big picture. You are kind of at the mercy of your troop program. But with that in mind, you have to consider how to ask questions on this forum so that you dont find yourself more confused or conflicted with your program. You may not have enough experience to take advice from the forum and merge it with your troop. The suggestions of just sitting back and observing your troop for a while is sound wisdom. Try to see how the some of the parts work together for the whole of the scouts adventure. Get a feel for the difference between how getting assigned a Position of Responsibility is different from the experience of real leadership. See if you can understand where learning a few knots might develop some character. And amongst all that, are the scouts enjoying their experience. I mean are they really enjoying scouting. Do the boys go home thinking I like myself when Im in the Troop? You see, FCFY is only a suggestion from National and I think the schedule your scouts are following is how your Troop is using that suggestion. Asking a question on this forum about FCFY may likely is not getting the you the right answer you need because our program doesnt follow the suggestion they way yours does. The best you get (and its pretty good stuff) is philosophical foundations of how FCFY fits in our complicated programs using the Eight Methods of Scouting. Have you read the Eight Methods of Scouting? They are the principles to reaching the Three Aims of Scouting. In my program, the adults are responsible for the three Aims, and the Scouts are responsible for the Eight Methods. Thats how my program works, but its not how everyones works. Keep asking the questions so that you can learn, just be leery that our replies may not fit well in your program. Give yourself some time to observe and see what this scouting stuff is all about. And for goodness sake, have fun. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Scoutfish, we did answer you, sure you can do the the scedule at a different pace. You can do what ever you want. Most folks basically responded in their own words to guide each scout individually at their own pace and own schedule. Im still wondering, is the FCFY schedule a BSA thing, a troop? I don't remember one. Our these guys in a NSP? Oh Eagle92, great post on the history of FCFY. Barry

I don't remember a first class schedule, is that a troop thing? Like Gwd, first class in our troop is recognition of having the skills and confidence to survive in the woods. There was no timeline or schedule for us, but we did push to have a program that wouldn't get in the way of the most aggressive scout. It's rare that two boys would be so alike that they would individually complete all the 1st class requirements in the same order. We encouraged our scouts to practice the traits of setting a goal to complete each requirement, make a plan to complete the requirements and then initiate then plan. Scouts who learned and followed those traits tended to earn Eagle because they learned a process of accomplishing long range goals one little step at a time. What I'm saying is use the rank requirements to teach some basic life skills. let the scouts set the schedule.

We suggest packs recruit all their adult positions by May and complete their annual pack agenda in June. We do a District Cub Scout recruiting clinic late July. Barry

I think we agree with you DL, but it's a matter of resources. Most packs don't have enough adults to proved choices of programs to the boys. Most feel lucky to find enough adults to provide a basic program. The BSA looses more than 50 percent of Webelos when they cross over to the troops. The number one cause for those loses is adult leader burnout, which results in a boring Webelos program. If we can get more adults interested in scouting to provide a refreshed program, we would change those numbers a lot. I say go for it DL and make it work. You have nothing to loose. I love this scouting stuff. Barry