Eagledad

>>Agree with the others; the scout should have been discussing this with the Commander and you, the SM. Was this the sole purpose of the "business meeting"?

Yes, maybe Im just going a little over the top, I am sure we all pretty much agree on adult motivated aggressive programs. Im very confident that Twocub is an outstanding SM because he gave an impressive list of approaches to guiding a scout to broader program. However, the challenge is how to say No to the adults without saying the N word. It is a common problem with scouts whose parents are pushing their sons to Eagle. But the aggressive parent for first class seems like an every year problem for new scouts going to summer camp. Its enough of a problem that we warned first year parents early that their scouts are restricted to only three MBs with swimming and canoeing being two of them. The reality is scouts can earn as much as they want, but we try to give them room to find out if MBs is what they want to do at summer camp. Or even pass all the requirements to first class. Some parents are quite passionate about their sons advancement. A few require special attention in explaining why we arent in as much of a hurry. I can think of two Life Scouts who asked me to speak to their parents about slowing down their Eagle time table. These were those go out for coffee kind of conversations and I certainly dont take sides, but instead try to listen to both sides. But when you get to that level of conversation, those parents usually don't just jump up and agree. I learned that one star generals do not like those kinds of converstations. Some parents will see the SM as the problem. The parents of two scouts changed troops. Another mother didnt force her older son to leave only because her younger loved our troop, but she sure wanted to. Older son never got Eagle but younger son was one of those scouts that age 16 was the SPL, Venture Crew Leader, Eagled, and planned a one week backing trip for a crew of ten. Mom has never forgiven me about older son and hasn't spoken to me in years. So it can be a challenge. I asked Troop scouters to remove the obstacles that can hold a scout back, but I tried to explain to all visiting parents how the advancement part of our program fit in the over objective of building men of character and leaders of integrity. I got better at this scouting stuff, but there is always that one parent that requires learning a new skill. Barry

>>The loss of those Scouts to boredom, Barry, was more the fault of the Webelos program than the troop.

>>In almost 8 years of Scouting, I have met only 1 of those kids. One in Hundreds of Scouts I have met

>>This kind of thing is obviously a goal set by adults, not boys.

>>That would be the only reason.

>>If you all need little strips of cloth.....chase them.....I need more than that.....

I agree with Sentinel947's last post and in fact coach the same advice to adults of new troops. I like units to maintain a consistant PORs long so that scouts know position does. Jumping back and forth from SPL to PL depending on the number of scouts can be confusing and requires changing reorganizing of responsibilities each time. I've said before that scouts' basically learn just about all their skills and management methods by the age 14. If the program doesn't have a consistant routine and expectation of responsibilities, the older scouts will struggle. And, our troop uses Sentine1947's organization roster of the ASPL being responsible for "Troop" acitivity planning while the SPL is responsible for Troop organizational management. I admit the SPL has and easy job with the PL doing 90% of the organizational management in a one patrol troop, but it wasn't much different with our SPL and seven patrols. A good SPL stands in the background of the Patrols leaders waiting to serve them, not lead them. Barry

>>But the man has a point.......

>> * Wilderness Survival * Insta-Leader * Service above Self

The best advice for adults is develop a program where a scout grows (advances) at his pace. Is it a bad program if the scout chooses five months? There are some amazing kids out there. I personally have never seen it done in five months, but I've seen a few in 10 months. That is still pretty aggressive, but it's the scouts choice. Now of course there is a problem with units that develop a program where all scouts earn first class in five months, but that program is going to have all kinds of other issues too. Barry

Don't think about this in setting number of activities, think in quality of units. Idealy district activities are intended to guide an expected level of performance from its units. If the units are doing well, the district doesn't need to provide a lot programs. If your units are strugging, prioritize a list that will best help the units. When a district committee is limited by volunteers and resources, it should only provide activities it can do well. If your committee can't do one well, then save the volunteers time and energy for activities it can do well. Barry

>> So I tend to be an advocate of troops limiting membership, because it both leads to a better experience for the youth (and adults!) and because it helps avoid unnecessary loss of boys "leaking" out when a troop gets too big and da individual lads get lost.

There are two parts that I would try to insure happen, get the scouts involved in the discussion so that they have ownership of the results, and make sure you have your own ideas going into the discussion. Im not a fan of sending the blind off into the wilderness in the name of boy run. Present the situation to all the scouts and then step back and watch the discussions. Likely it will go toward the obvious of one patrol with trained leaders. If the discussion is more of just randumness of no direction as a result of inexperience and maturity, then ask a question to get them on track and then sit back to watch. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with trained leaders being pushed to start the new program. Its OK to suggest qualifications for leadership should be considered for good direction of the group. You are the mentor and a guide of wisdom. If they dont consider the direction you suggest, then you have some challenges. But Scouts generally are pretty good about these things when the future of their fun and adventure are in question. This will be a test of your patience, scouts work at a forth the speed of adults because they dont have experience to guide them. If you dont get in a hurry, they will figure it out. And it will be fun for all involved. Barry

>>The two teenaged boys: The only thing she knew was that there were two boys there and they walked out doing something with their pants. All other conclusions were prejudice.

My Apologies, I guess the metaphor is more common here. From Wikipedia: The Frog in the Pot The boiling frog story is a widespread anecdote describing a frog slowly being boiled alive. The premise is that if a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water that is slowly heated, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as a metaphor for the inability of people to react to significant changes that occur gradually. Barry

>>A way exists to accommodate both of those viewpoints, in different units, but you don't support it and the BSA won't do it. That's what I have a problem with.

Great post Horizon. If I were still a SM, I would read your post word for word at my next SM Minute. Nothing needs to be added. Barry

>>Very few of us are really in a position to throw stones.

>>Peregrinator, we did have a chat afterwards. But if you think we had much effect on those raging hormones, you need a reality check, fella.

Im shaking my head in amazement. Dean, I dont think anyone could do a better job to impress the point of this subject. See NJ, the frog doesnt think the water is hot. Barry

>> Barry's posts (even in Issues and Politics) almost always relate to Scouting in some way, and as far as I know there is not a huge nationwide issue with strippers in leadership positions.

Dean, your examples are folks in distinguished well respected occupations making bad choices. Nude strip and lap dancing are not yet accepted by most communities as respectable occupations. >>As for the article, let the courts decide... its more about tax revnue and avoiding it than it is about morality anyways.

>>Eagledad, I can't find any reference to a child whose mother is a strip tease dancer.

>>When offered the choice between electing the best person for the job or electing someone who needs a POR they always seem to choose the one who needs it. I can't imagine a troop voting down a boy for Eagle except in the most extreme circumstance.