Eagledad

I guess I'm too simple about this, I've read your post three times Skeptic and I'm still not sure when this scout was in your troop. Were you troop number two? Anyway, Scouts are pretty smart and I don't think you need to worry about that big of an explination. This is so far off the wall, they get it. In fact, I would guess what they really want to know is how much the adults get it. I once did a SM Minute similar (almost identical) to Twocubs and it made the point point pretty clear. Barry

>>Barry, I certainly hope you aren't suggesting that people keeping their thoughts on controversial issues to themselves, as opposed to taking out their political anger on cub scouts, has anything to do with the first amendment? Because THAT would be ignorant.

>>Ignorant people at grocery stores agreeing with you doesn't make something right.

I agree with Sentinel, well done. You lead into the post using new scouts, but the basis of the post is more about a self-sustaining boy run program. New Scouts in the Patrol Method could be another paragraph, but I'm not suggesting any changes because the well written post stands fine as is. I knew you understood the subject when you lead into it with the older scouts. The quality of the whole program is directly related to the older scouts, so it was appropriate to start there. Well done. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I was afraid of this, its all being used up by the fried Bacon Wrapped Oreos fair venders. Barry

I think its a pretty good approach. It depends a lot on the maturity of the scout. I had one scout who was completely defient, but another one who voluntarily delayed his BOR until he proved to himself he could do better. The personal attack part is important and I understand where you are coming from. You want to come off looking disappointed, not angry. Then he will respect your wisdom and not feel he is just being disciplined by an adult. Try to imagine you are having a discussion with an adult your age. It helps if you only as questions that hopefully guide him in the right direction. Once you start to get lectureous, you risk your emotions taking over and crossing the line. Disapointed, not angry. Also, there is nothing wrong with a continued conference. Ask a question he can't answer, continue the conversation later when he says he's ready. Sometimes the lesson has a lot more impact when you wait for him to realize the wrong in his decision than you explaining that he even made a wrong choice. Good luck, these things take practice. Barry

>>Eagledad, could you please do your fellow forum members a favor, and if your initial post in a thread has nothing at all to do with Scouting, not give the thread a title that implies that it is about Scouting?

Well first of all, get out of the habit of using the scout sign to beat folks into submission. Most adults do it, I know. But that is an inappropriate use of a symbol of respect. Next, assume that you will never have a totally quiet room with the ages involved. And if the parents are part of the problem, well you are really in trouble. The best pack meetings are the ones where the scouts leave exhausted. How do you do that? Well keep them moving and all the time. After the Flag ceremony, do some kind of loud cheer that requires scouts to yell at the top of their lungs for 30 seconds. Trust me, after that, you have their attention for the next few minutes. Then do another yell that requires them to stand and stomp their feet. I always did something like, HEY guys, any time I hold my neckerchief or hat out to my side, you stand and stomp your feet as fast as you can, but once it hits the ground, you have to be totally quiet. See what your are doing is wearing them out a little holding the hat out, and then Im getting total silence when the hat its the floor. They are so worn out by stomping their feet, or yelling, or whatever that they welcome the sudden quiet. And its kind of fun even for them to hear the sudden quiet. Do couple of times in a row so they can hear the the quiet. I found that when the natives start to get restless, I grab my hat or neckerchief and hold it out. I personally dont like the scouts to sit quiet for more than five minutes, so I plan something that will get them moving, but one time the UC did a surprise uniform inspection one meetings. Well there is no way to keep 100 scouts quiet while the UC inspects all the dens. So when the boredom got to the point of scouts teasing their buddy, I ask the UC to pause for a moment and without saying a word I held up my hat and listened to about 30 seconds of foot stomping loud yelling cubs. When the hat hit the floor, the UC was able to finish his inspection in relative calm. NO signs, no yelling to shut up. Just Cub Scout acting their are to harmony. Trust me it works. There are plenty of sources on the internet for hundreds of cheers and yells. Do something different at each meeting so the scouts dont get bored, but think of reasons for them to stand, yell, cheer, scream, stomp their feet, beat the chest, clap their hands, even twirl around three times as fast as they can. Just Wear Them Out. Even do a cheer for each den getting their awards. Award presentations shouldnt be quiet. Scouts like to show theiir respect LOUDLY. As for those silly parents. I always kept a few corny jokes in my pocket to interrupt the meeting. In general, adults like corny jokes that may be even funnier to adults than scouts. HEY Parents, Knock Knock. I also learned that scouts love to see their parents in front of the crowd, so I usually found a CM skit where I asked a few parents to participate. I always ask parents to lead songs. They have to be silly songs that make the parents do silly things because the Scouts love it. That keeps the parents engaged. My Pack meetings for 100 scouts usually last about 50 minutes. That 50 minutes, is packed full with at least two den skits, two walk on skits done by the Webelos, one silly song, at least four corny joke interruptions, three cheers, announcements and awards(awards cheers). Announcements where usually some kind of silly CM skit like coming out on roller blades to announce the roller skating party. Most serious announcements were given in the newsletter handed out to parents at the beginning of the meeting. I couldnt stand boring announcements because the scouts were bored out of their minds. So you can see if the scouts are yelling at the top of the lungs for about 30 minutes. Our scouts are exhausted when they go home. Finally, if I need the audiences attention, I put my sign up for no more than five seconds asking for their respect. Then I jump into the next meeting agenda item even if they arent quite yet. When you move from one agenda item to the next, scouts will learn to get quiet quickly so they dont miss the fun that is coming. But you have to make the meeting something they dont want to miss. I always did a check on myself, if I saw scouts getting bored at any point in the meeting, I was doing something wrong and I changed it. That is how I request the committee put announcements on a newsletter. Your meeting should go fast and have high energy. The last 15 minutes should start to taper down in energy to an end of quiet vespers and retrieving the flags. Whats also fun about this is the scouts siblings will have just as much fun yelling and jumping around they will look forward to the pack meetings as much as their brother. If you get the parents involved with songs, skits and jokes, you will find that your meetings are look upon as a fun family night. It will take a little practice, but give it a try. I really love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well at least it's not hate speech yet! ""France set to ban words 'mother' and 'father' on official documents under plans to legalize gay marriage"" http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/25/france-set-to-ban-words-mother-and-father-under-plans-to-legalize-gay-marriage/ "This could have innumerable consequences. Afterward they will want to create couples with three or four members. And after that, perhaps one day the taboo of incest will fall," he said, according to the report." Barry

>>But the real problem here isn't with the parent, rather with the CC.> His response to the parent should have been, "let's get Mr. Ohana and your son involved and figure out what's going on."

Yes, I agree the title isn't accurate to the story. The story was presented to show how cultural morality has degraded to where early teen sex is expected and even supported. Barry

>>OGE I like that..... But facebook has a 13 year old minimum......

>>I'd tell the CC that I would drop the merit badges immediately, even in the middle of counseling scouts, if the CC even thinks about attempting to force me to water down the requirements, and doesn't back me up 100%.

>>There is no government conspiracy - it's people doing what they learned from their elders. Teach your children well.

Im trying to understand why the CC called you. Are they asking you to change or just passing along information. Its ok, even behooves, unit leaders to expect counselors follow published procedures and performance. But if you are following the published procedures, what is the point of contacting you? The CC needs to be diplomatic with everyone while at the same time providing a buffer between parents and unit volunteers until the misunderstanding is resolved. Its not a matter of who is right or wrong, it is a matter of everyone agreeing on common expectations of all the scouts. The CC shouldnt be passing along ananymous parents opinions, they should working to find and educate everyone of the units common expectations. If the counselor isnt following the published expectations, then some training is required. If the parents or scouts have different expectation than what is published, their expectations need to be changed. I would contact the CC and ask exactly what they are expecting from the MB counselors and scouts. Then get everyone on the same page. The CC shouldnt just be passing along grumblings and complaints getting folks upset, they should be finding and fixing the misunderstanding. Barry

13 year old divorcees and widows? Hmm, it's worse than I thought. Barry

I don't remember the city because it was several years ago, but a law was passed where underage girls could get an abortion without a parent's permission. At the time, it was the only surgical procedure that could be performed on a minor without a parent or guardians signature. Barry

This is that "Frog in the Pot" thing. Have todays teenagers ever heard of shotgun weddings? From Fox News: "Parents not told NYC schools dispensing morning-after pill" http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/24/13-new-york-city-schools-provide-morning-after-pills-to-teens/ ""The New York City Department of Education is providing morning-after pills and other birth control drugs to students at 13 city high schools."" Barry

>>My freshman has made a group at high school that meets on the same night as scouts. I need to explore some options of how to keep him active.

>>I mean it really doesn't seem odd to me that friends want to stay together...when you split them up, it probably irritated them...so you got bad (or worse) behavior. It they really are difficult to deal with, putting them in one patrol limits the damage they can do.

In most cases you are right Beveaher, but there really wasn't a lot to say in that discussion. Lesson to learn, Im not sure. Merlyn gets credit for posting a factual story, but the reality is Merlyn was just taking another slap at the BSA. OK, so we should turn the other cheek, which many of us did. But the subject was also an opening for those so called friends of the BSA to get their lick in as well. There are some disturbed mean angry folks in this group and one has to wonder if they talk to their scouts the same way. I think its fair to say that 2/3s of the posts contributed nothing to that discussion. Maybe even of the posts. The posts about the Eagle project is even more disturbing. The poor OP got hit with ridiculous personal accusations that certainly had nothing to do with the subject. To be honest, Im embarrassed for us as scouters when new folks are fried because of the way they asked a real scouting question. In fact, it is likely they will get accused of something no matter what they ask. Are we supposed to learn from such intellectual discourse? Until we start holding each other accountable for juvenile attacks on each other, real discussions are going to become more rare and we will only attract angry folks dressed as scout leaders looking for a place to vent. Lets face it, this forum is an attraction for such folks. Barry

>>Your first post made it sound like the boys just wanted to be together and were acting up because they couldn't.> They come to meetings with or without uniforms, or worn incorrectly. They only hang out together, and not within their patrols. They misbehave at camps and activities. And they get angry and cause problems when they can't do these things. There parents aren't getting involved, leaving it up to me to sort out. Their parents are also serving on the Committee. Maybe it's because we had this exact same experience, but I didn't get the feeling the boys just acting up because wanted to be together. In fact, down to the rich kid, my experience is almost identical. Because of our four scouts, our troop was asked to NOT come back to next years summer camp. Send them home you say.. THE PARENTS WERE THERE! The scouts weren't really the problem, their parents lack of parenting skills was the problem. As I said, we fixed our situation by telling the parents to participate side by side with the sons. While the parents were good friends and hard workers, we don't miss them. Barry

>>Beavah, I picked you because you are one the LAST persons I'd ever expect would hope for something like that, thus (or so I hoped) emphasizing the 'hypothetical' nature of the comment.

>>I think in the whole forum people need to remember to treat one another with respect.

The information here is limited, BUT I had the exact same situation with four scouts. It wasn't about not being in the same patrol, these guys just didn't enjoy scouting. Long story short, we required the parents (ASMs) to attend the troop activities side-by-side with their sons and the problem quickly sorted itself out. The parents were more embarrased by their sons' behavior than the scouts themselves. Barry