Eagledad

Totally agree. My Paintball analogy reflects the same thought. My guess is that organizing strangers into a functional group is a different type of organization skill The reason the Girl Scouts are able to do it so well is because they learned over the years in their Troop. I did an exercise like this at each of our Council JLT training. After all the participants arrived to course, we gave them 15 minutes to organize into patrols of 7 with each scout assigned to a POR position. The only restriction was no two scouts from the same troop could be in a patrol. Barry

Sure, with two older sons and a little girl trailing, I learned there and at other youth organizations that girls tend to fixate on being organized while boys tend to be more adventure oriented. And, in general, girls tend to think in a small picture of details while the boys think in the big picture. What I found is that the young girls will take over a group of boys when it comes to planning and organizing because they like dealing with details. Ever watch very young girls play house? Boys willingly give that up because they hate the tedious small stuff in organizing. What is more frustrating about those trends is that adults interpret the girls organization skills as good leadership skills, when that isn't the case. Girls struggle a lot with the chaos of group dynamics. Boys do to, but only when they don't agree on the goals. And I get so tired of adults bragging about the girls organizational skills to motivate boys to step up. It only frustrates boys relationship and trust with the adults. Growth comes much easier for both groups when they are dealing with the same general struggles of the group personalities because the growth gains from the decisions are basically the same. Or can be coached or mentored basically the same. Many believe boys are slower to mature, but the reality is that the instincts of the two genders appose each other so much that the nature tendency for adventure contrasted against organization makes the boys appear less mature. Throw a few boys together in a paint ball match and see how quickly they will make a plan. It's amazing really. Girls struggle just coming together as a group. This is not to say some boys are better at organization and some girls are adventure minded. But, in the big picture. the two genders don't mix well until puberty. AND that has it's own struggles. Barry

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize. But, I could see all girl patrols working within the true patrol method since the personal challenges wouldn't be gender specific. The problems of natural instincts fade as each gender reaches puberty, so I don't think older scout leadership is a big problem at the older ages. It's not perfect, but we live in a culture that cares less about maximin potential growth of the youth. Barry

I agree. I've yet to talk to anyone who cares how this comes out. They believe Scouting will move on as it has. I remember when many folks believe the gay restriction would kill the BSA, then they said allowing gays would kill the BSA. Some felt restricting ashiest will kill the BSA. Restricting girls was killing the program. Admitting girls will kill the program. Just about every person who I saw give these predictions had a history of other anti-BSA rants.. The BSA is a 110 years old, give or take, and has the distinct reputation of developing values and character in the scouts who participated. General quotes that the BSA is unsafe or the BSA neglects the scouts doesn't really ring in a culture where teachers, ministers, coaches and family members are in the news everyday for child abuse. Folks know that scout units are run by parents and friends, not the BSA. It's the BSA, it's the Scout Leader parents and the bad ones are in the other unit down the street. If the BSA survives bankruptcy, scouting will go on because it provides the parents with a program of developing values and provides the scouts a program of fun. And frankly, when compared to other youth organizations, the BSA is safer than most. Barry

I may be corrected, but I think the answer is "no", parents aren't required on all communications. Just a 3rd person. Of course the unit may have additional policies. Barry

The older Eagles are friends and relatives in their mid 60's. The friends do not know the relatives. My Eagle son was contacted as well. None of these Eagles were victims. Barry

That isn't true. Some folks just want to see the facts.. Barry

Good post. I have no trouble with the anger. I struggle with how the vague numbers are used as fact. One way or the other. When data can't be defended, it becomes a weapon for both sides of debate. Doing this was a big no no in debate class back in high school because it gets nowhere. The 82,000 has gone nowhere for a long time. Better to leave this thread as a reporting the facts of the case. Barry

Hmm, not enough data. Barry

I don't have an assumption of numbers in this discussion because there isn't accurate data one way or the other. That is the point of my post. Barry

What are my assumptions? Barry

Oh, I see. You're only using a teeny, tiny itty bitty bitty predictive model. Well that is different. See how well that works when engineers used the same amount of design to defend a car wreck or plane crash.. You folks admittingly don't have a clue of the numbers, high or low. Nobody does. Lots of emotion, but not a lot of data. I'm curious, I can understand lawyers using these numbers in court to your advantage. But what do you gain defending those numbers on this forum where it doesn't make a difference. You're situation implies an obvious bias, so you aren't changing any minds. I don't get it. Barry

You have said this before and you should stop because it's purely conjecture based on nothing. I'm an engineer and we learn quickly that quality of the design, and safety in my field, is the result of the precision of facts and elements used in development. Anything less looses integrity. We all have our quirks and the scouts in my troop (and my kids) learned quickly that I am a patient man/father until someone spreads guesses and conjecture as facts. Once they do that, they loose integrity, and that is hard to earn back. In this case, I know a lot of elderly Eagles Scouts who were approached several times in the last couple years to join this law suit. And what about all those TV commercials in front of millions of viewers. The temptation for easy gain was very tempting. Exactly! We will never know the full scope. Any guess that is used to forward an opinion is just an emotion looking for an audience.. I saw a poll a few months ago that showed the American public has the lowest respect for the American new media ever. Is anyone surprised by the loss of that Integrity? Barry

I found the greatest role modeling action that bonds and raises trust with scouts is admitting a wrong choice or action. Adults instruct at youth so much of their early life that they rarely see admissions of being wrong from the adults. Youth feel an adult admitting they are wrong raises them, the youth, to an equal level of character and it changes the relationship. Barry

I'm sure I awarded at least 1000 Bobcats for that ceremony and I never saw a single scout who wasn't giddy with excitement waiting for his turn. I was the CM of a pack with 140 scouts, so 30 bobcats wasn't unusual. We looked for several dads to alternate, mainly for the scouts safety. Then Branding became popular to replace the hazing ceremony. An ink print of the Bobcat was dipped in a water base paint and applied to the arm. But, political correctness ended that ceremony. That was before tatoos were as popular as they are now. I'm thinking the ink print might be popular now. Adults know how to take the fun out of scouting. Barry

Yes, National hasn't helped either. They for-bided the up-side down Bobcat ceremony because it was hazing. That was stupid, it was a simply holding scouts up-side-down because it was fun for the scouts. Not for the adults. They could have easily said it was a safety concern and everyone would have agreed. I know I would. After holding a dozen scouts up-side-down, I was done for the day. But, National instead insinuated volunteers were purposely humiliating the scouts. They felt they needed leverage I guess, but it only makes National look irresponsible. And how far does hazing and teasing go. Some councils recommended units not sing the Happy Birthday song because it could embarrass a scout. Hmm. Barry

What? Barry

This post makes no sense. David’s post is just the other side. Barry

This is a a good point. There came a point when I was SM that I quit taking these types of classes because the refreshers were taking too much of my time. Also, I realized I needed to stop being the go-to person for every activity, but the continued training was a pain. Barry

Yes, but the United Methodist Men's Foundation group that supports the BSA is not part of the Church leadership that is liberal. So, in a sense, there are two groups. While the leadership isn't directly involved with the church BSA support, they wouldn't mind if that part of the program fell by waste side. Barry

Correct, and that is where Youth Protection policies and procedures and training guide the adults. You are certainly right. The adults can have a good mentoring relationship under the YPT guidelines. Many of my Eagle Conferences where in the middle of camping and venturing activities right in front of the whole groups. I did one while driving to Philmont. If you were to ask the scouts, they would probably say they weren't even sure it was a conference because we had so many casual conversations in the those settings. I remember buying a ice-cream bar for a scout while doing his 2nd class SM Conference at summer camp. The review board told me later he didn't know that we were having a conference. But, I feel like the YPT is appropriate for the intention of protecting the scouts, as well as the adults'. The adults just need to insure everyone is held accountable to following the guidelines. In life, most behavioral habits we grow to learn come from consistent expectations of the adults. I'm sure your troop worked this way. Most do. The reason many kids struggle today is that many of us are afraid to speak up when they see something that appears wrong. I found that adults and scouts are afraid to speak up when they see an action they want to question because they don't like confrontation. I taught on this very subject in training because I saw so much of it in both Packs and Troops. But it's still hard when instincts push a person to stay away from trouble. YPT is good enough to protect the scouts, but maybe both the scouts and adults need to be trained that reporting something suspicious is OK and expected. But, saying that, I know it's hard. Barry

Good luck. What everyone is basically saying is grooming is a process of Living the Scout Law. Are we going to turn Friendly, Courteous, and Kind into suspicious behavior now? it would be easier to keep the adults 100 yards away from the Patrols. Barry

I'm skeptical because scouts already join for the outdoor fun and adventure. That part of the program is fine. The adults are the ones that turn it on its head, and I'm not sure how that can change. Where I disagree with Fred is he wants to simplify the program so the adults can do a better job. But, if we take away goals, adults by nature fill in with their own ambitious desires. I don't believe that adults will allow scouts to lead if leadership is not part of the goals. I've watched to many adults fill in their self-desires where they see gaps in the program. An afterschool outdoor program fits because it doesn't matter what the adults do, it's part of the program. I also don't believe older scouts stay in the program for fun and adventure. I have actually polled our scouts on this. Only 1/4 of the scouts 14 and older hung around for the outdoors activities. If you can get an honest answer as to why older scouts stay with the program, you will learn they enjoy adult mature responsibilities of running a complicated program, mentoring the younger scouts. You don't see older scouts in adult run troops for two reasons: First, they have been doing fun and adventure for several years, it's not a draw anymore. Second, the only responsibility that have with younger scouts basically comes down to babysitting. That is not the same as mentoring. Barry

This all may true. I believe Scouts will survive at a minimum as just an outdoors program. The problem is when a program is only focused on activities without the virtues of behavior values as a by-product, the adults will turn it into an after school/weekend activity program. Basically a babysitting program. The hallmark of if giving scouts the independence of running program will fade away. We struggle with adult intrusiveness now, making values a lower priority will finish if off. I understand this is what happened to Canadian Scouts. Barry

For me the Eagle Conference was different for each scout. It's a bit of a review and a bit of future expectations of being and Eagle. I don't make a big deal of it really because I've had several conversations with them in the past. I have invited the parents now and then to review what their son can expect from the EBOR. Some families get anxious about it. A few relatives of one scout's flew in from another state. I try to bring calm and do a little bragging in all the conferences. I have done a couple conferences during Backpacking hikes. I think it is important to treat the discussion as two equal adults having a discussion. It's hard because you are the scout MASTER evacuating the SCOUT. But, try to imagine the conference as more of two mentors comparing notes. Barry