Eagledad

I think the approach to a successful scouting experience for both the adults and scouts is keeping it local. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Brewmeister says it perfectly when he talked about folks seemingly to taking a perverse delight in the missteps in the scouting program. But when I look back on my scouting experience as a youth and adult, those are some of my best memories of my life. My sons say the same thing. Not sure about their mom who was a Scoutmasters widow for a few years, but I know scouting has a permanent warm place in the memories of our family. When news is bad, and it seems bad all the time anymore, turn it off and take the scouts out in the woods. Making good scouting memories really isn't allthat hard. I remember one time my Webelos assistant called me about an hour before a den meeting to tell me about the eagle watch at our local lake. We dumped the original den meeting plans and took the scouts to the lake to watch eagles. It was pretty cold and after about 45 minutes of no eagles, we built a fire. One of the adults just happen to have a bag of marsh mellows, so we roasted marsh mellows, laughed, joked and basically enjoyed the scouting fellowship of the moment. We accomplished nothing that day, and yet one of the scouts reminded me of that day six years later at his Eagle COH. You just never know what can turn into a great scouting memory. If we are to keep the true scouting in perspective, we need to do real scouting stuff that has the most impact on our lives and the lives or our youth. We need to focus on our local scouting stuff. When the news starts to weigh heavy on us, turn it off and go to a scout activity. If nothing else, just watch boys in action. Start tuning out the malcontents on this forum and instead help a fellow scouter asking for little advice. If you had a great scouting day, tell us about it. Oaktree graciously sends me some of his Troop emails that warm my scouting heart. He lives 1500 miles away, so I have never met his scouts, but I seem to put a face on every scout in his mails. Do the stuff that makes us feel good to be scouters. If its good for us, it's good for the Scouting program. Do those things that helps us love this scouting stuff. Barry

All good stuff here. On the high adventure, it's OK for adults to push exciting adventures, large or small. Sometimes adults need to push fun stuff into the program. But a lot of units hesitate because they lack experienced adults. The suggestion of starting small like doing a five mile backpacking weekend trip is a good way to start because it doesnt require a lot of gear or planning, but it points out what needs to be learned. That is how we started and we are now one of most active high adventure programs in the district. It took some pushing by the adults at first to get some momentum, but once we got the first big trek out of the way, the scouts couldnt get enough. Also, you can check around with other troops and organizations to find experts who will come in and train your troop. We went to a local military base to find experts for our rappelling campout and they were very excited to spend a month training us at the troop meetings and then helping at the campout. One of our adults became so involved with rappelling after that campout that he ended up the Council rappelling trainer a few years later. We found a canoeing expert in another troop who prepared us for Northern Tier. Our troop took lessons from a local Scuba shop that help the troop plan a trip to Mexico. Another adult had access to a condo so we started taking scouts snow skiing every year. Its really just taking the first small step and getting scouts excited about adventure opportunities. Once a scout comes up with some crazy idea, its just a matter of the adults saying yes and helping the scout research how to make it work. Barry

I am just throwing out thoughts. First off, the problem we found with Simi annual PLC activities like training, teambuilding and annual planning campouts is that after the scouts have done it once or four times, they didnt look forward to it the next. Its a big problem for experienced scouts who are on the PLC for a couple years. And campouts were the worst because they take up a whole weekend without getting all that much accomplished, plus they are all that much fun from a boy perspective. We through the years evolved from campouts and whole weekend planning/training sessions to short two hour training sessions or overnight lock-ins. The scouts typically to the annual planning with a lock-in. They spent the first few hours doing the planning, then the rest of the night playing computer games. Its short and fun. Some of the scouts think its one of the best benefits of being on the PLC. We also did a one night two hour training session the week before or the week after the lock-in. That training required all members of the PLC and all adult mentors. We spent the first hour reviewing the Aims, Methods, boy run and the hierarchy of CO down to the new scout. The intent was showing everyone our vision and how we work toward that vision. The adult mentor and scout for each PLC position reviewed the scouts job responsibilities during the second hour as well as setting some realistic goals for the socuts next six months with his responsibilties. What we found is that by condensing the planning, training and job review into just a few hours, we didnt have the problem of scouts dreading the activity after they had done them several times before. Instead they looked forward to getting the specific information without spending a whole weekend. Bascially we asked the scouts how to make these things fun and this is the result. As I said, I am not expecting folks to follow our example, I just wanted to throw other ideas out there. Since you are going to do the campout, I would set the goal that the scouts come home basically knowing the schedual for the next year, their job responsibilities, your goals for the program, and how they fit in that plan. Truth of the matter is most scouts could really care less with your vision or aims or methods, but reviewing those things show them that there is a method to the madness. As for your PLC not taking ownership yet, I remember when our troop was stuck there and for us it was the adults that were in the way. We were still taking on too much responsibility of the activities. The scouts didnt feel the ownership because they were taking feeling the responsibility of the troop performance. We started asking the scouts to review the program at the end of each night whether it was the Troop meetings or campouts. The idea was getting them to give ideas to what they could do better the next time, then push them to make those changes. Its a bit of a slow process with the hardest part holding the adults back. If you see a crash about to happen, its best to let it happen so the scouts feel the burn of failure. The burn should be motivation to change. Implementing change that improves the program develops ownership. Hope that helps at least a little. Barry

>> I think most intelligent people dislike the BSA's policies,

Well then the troop is probably in a bad place because it appears there is nobody at the wheel. You certainly can't hold the troop on track as the occasional visitor, especially at this difficult stage in the program. There is certain finesse in using just enough adult guidance to nudge scout independence in a positive direction and that requires a full time mentor. The mentor doesnt even have to be all that experienced, but they do need to know where the troop is going to know when the program has stalled. Until then, its like a blind man herding cats. Eventually the adults will take full control because they don't see boy run working. You seem to have a lot invested in this troop, but I think you are going to drive yourself miserable if you dont either take more responsibility or get completely away. Barry

Well, it just sounds like a program with no vision. Scouts don't have a clue what they are supposed to do, adults don't know either, so it's a bunch of cats running around trying to find something to keep their mind busy. Sometimes a leader here will spout out let the scouts figure it out and I cringe. This is the perfect example of why you just can't send young scouts into the woods without skills or goals and expect them to come back a well oiled machine. That is not boy run. There has to be some expectations to guide a transformation of personal performance. Chaos is not fun, even for young scouts. It doesn't sound like a bad bunch of kids really. Given a good leader of vision, I think these guys could run a great troop. You up for the task Eagle92? Time to see just how good you are. As frustrating as it seems at first, the rewards of building a good program are much more satisfying than just maintaining one. Barry

I confront when I feel something is wrong, rules are for sissys. Barry

>>But when it comes down to Eamonn's standards I wonder if it's fair that I have the same expectations from them as I do from my son?

I agree that scouts and adults need to be in shape for long hikes and high altitude hikes. However, even though I preached to our crews to get in shape for their treks, they basically ignored me. And I never had a scout physically struggle with backpacking anymore than any other scout in the crew as long as they carried a reasonable pack weight to their body weight. Most of my struggling scout problems were mental, which is much harder to deal with. Kids today in general can handle the kind of backpacking most troops do without a lot of conditioning. Im not saying dont do any conditioning, its not as much a problem as one would think. Adults on the other hand need to get in shape. And I have to agree with both Base and Seattle, I would much prefer backpackers carry a maximum of 25% of their body weight with a goal of 20% because it just makes the trip more enjoyable. But I have seen scouts carry more than 40% without complaining. It can be challenging, my son weighed 105lbs when he went to Philmont his first time. It is next to impossible to carry a pack of personal gear, crew gear and food for under 25 lbs. At least back then, light weight backpacking is a lot more popular today. Im curious, does the SM now have to approve scouts under 14 to go on treks? What about whole troops that backpack? Barry

This isnt an election issue, it is about character growth and how the adult encourages that growth. We must remember that character is our goal and the activities of the program are just ways for scouts to see themselves making decisions. These scouts are not acting as servant leaders of the troop. They are instead being self-serving by competing against each other to be top dog and dragging the troop down to their level of immaturity. They are being prideful, which is not a trait of a servant leader. Servant leadership is outward actions of humility, not self-pride. So how do we adults get scouts to see their actions in self-serving mirror, we ask them to reflect their behavior against the Scout Law and Oath. The points in the Scout Law are outward actions of humility. Every action by a scout toward others should be measured against the scout law. The Scout Law is a perfect guide of servant leadership and is an easy guide for the adults when they need a scout to see their wrong choices. The discussion with the scouts needs to go the direction of respecting each others responsibilities, and at the very least following the other scouts duties of leadership Cheerfully even when they dont agree. The problem new adult leaders have is getting scouts to change focus from themselves to focus to those they serve. The Scout Oath sets the priority of god, county, and other people. The main point here is that the scout serves himself last, not first. The Law directs the proper actions of serving others. Personally I would first sit down with scout each separately and teach them the difference between servant leadership and self-servant leadership and the advantages and disadvantages of each style. I would then remind them of the how the Law and Oath work in the scouts decisions. Then my style of working with scouts is getting them to reflect their decisions to the law and then leave them to ponder on it. For a scout to want to change, he has to discover on his own the motivation to change. Once I did that and allowed the scouts to think about it, then I would encourage the SPL to meet with the ASPL and discussion how they can work together. The hard part here is not the scouts behavior, its how we adults guide the scouts to see it so that they are motivated to change. Its not easy and it takes practice. But we do have the Scout Oath and Law to hlep us if nothing else. Character change only happens when we dont like ourselvees when we see how we react to stress. Leadership is one of the best ways for a scout to be stressed. Since we know leadership is stressful and our character will come out with stress, we adults need to be prepared that the scouts will need some guidance. Not much really, but something that gets them to see themselves and how they are making decisions. If we dont do it here in the troop, then where? Barry

>>It was a truly pleasant experience.

Welll, more laws to force tourist to behave: http://townhall.com/columnists/debrajsaunders/2012/10/09/even_in_sf_there_is_no_free_naked_lunch ""Both Wiener and Richards blame out-of-towners for coming to the Special City to go bald. The problem, noted Wiener, is that these stark-naked tourists are "undermining the neighborhood."""" """One naked guy may be a nuisance, but too much nudity begets too much crudity. It degrades the social fabric. For San Francisco's political class, you might say, stark-naked people have become the new pothole.""" Yet another example of governement "exposing" itself as the judge of personal behavior. It seems tourist are the scourge of the earth. Or at least potholes. Barry

Seems there is a misunderstanding of the local option. Local Option simply is the option of sponsoring a BSA unit. Once National takes away membership requirements, the sponsoring organization is left without cover for not accepting gay leaders. Given the choice, sponsoring no unit is a lot less hassle. Barry

When I was a scout, patrols were mixed from ages 10 to 17. Our Patrol leaders usually drove to meetings, so they were typically very experienced and mature. Usually a scout stayed with the same patrol they joined for most of their scouting career. Since new scouts in those days joined by age instead of as a group, the troop and patrols received new scouts all year long. As a result, skills development was a constant all the time patrol responsibility to get the new scouts up to speed. Now I say skills development because from a patrol standpoint, skills development was as much a priority as rank advancement. Patrols back then were very competitive and skills proficiency was important for measuring against each other. So Im not sure that advancement is really a major part of Patrol method. My personal opinion is the advancement method is a high influence on effective leadership, citizenship and personal skills development. Done correctly, the advancement process exposes and develops personal skills that enhance team performance. Advancement also develops personal self-reliance and self-initiative. All those skills enhance the patrol method experience because they sharpen the cohesiveness of a team working together. But they arent team skills, they are personal skills that improve the scouts ability function effectively with others. One example is the recommendation of scouts seeking the MB counselor by contacting the SM, then contacting the counselor to set up meetings, then filling out the MB Card to present to the SM. We found that those three steps greatly help develop the confidence of younger scouts communicating with adults along with developing organization skills through the paperwork process. In fact, we saw that after three MBs, a 10 year old scout had complete confidence in making phone contacts with adults without any need for help or encouragement. That gave them a lot of confidence in how they worked with their patrol mates in their personal patrol responsibilities. We really saw this with older scouts who joined our troop and didnt have these personal skills. But its not just the MB part of the advancement program, teaching a scout to set goals through the process of learning scout skills and taking initiative to complete those skills is a huge growth process in how these scouts work as leaders and team members later on down the road. Its surprising how few Scoutmasters teach scouts that reaching eagle is taking one very small step at a time. Adults are so focused on getting to first class as fast as possible, they set up classes designed for the scout to walk in and just learn A skill instead of teaching the scout to set the goal of picking a skill, setting the goal of completing the skills and initiating the process of finding an instructor to teach and with the result of reaching the goal. Its a huge difference in developing personal skills and independence. Well I can see Im babbling again. My oppologies. Barry

>>I agree with the idea of local option. IMHO, our current position will lead to BSA eventually being forced into the position of allowing gay leaders regardless of CO opinion.

There are a lot of good replies here that describe the problem. And most of them are correctly hitting at the main point that Scouting isn't about advancement, its about growth in the Three Aims of character, fitness and citizenship. Advancement is only one of Eight Methods to achieving those goals as intended by the BSA, but it gets more than its fair share of focus because adults dont really know how to measure progress any other way. Truthfully when done correctly, advancement is toward the top of the list for the impact it can have on a scout of reaching those Three Aim goals. But the problem is most adults in their ignorance of the program focus on the prize of advancement and dont even consider the real objectives of character, fitness and citizenship. MB Colleges, fairs, academies, whatever you want to call them are a good example of focusing on the prizes of advancement and ignoring the three aims. Can those programs be presented so that the scouts get the full impact of developing character, you bet. But the vast majority doesnt because that is not the concern of the planners. This whole discussion is wrapped around the adults misplaced operation of the boy scout program. I see it as a BSA cultural problem because there really isnt much emphasis directing adults otherwise. The First Class rank is traditionall supposed to indicate that the scout has learned all the skills necessary to survive in the woods by himself. Yet, how many here honestly feel comfortable with drooping off their 11 year old scout in the woods for two nights by themselves? What were we really trying to do then by getting the scout to First Class? If adults arent really serious about the skills scouts are supposed to gain from their experiences of advancement, then they aren't going to develop the process of advancement in their program that was intended by the BSA. Or at least the traditional BSA. Barry

>>Just so we can get it out of the way, I'll stipulate now that I'm probably also a terrible parent who has ruined her child's life, I'm a hater of PTA meetings, I failed to show sufficient school spirit at homecoming events in high school, and I'm most likely mean to kittens and puppies, too. As, of course, are all of us who are "pushing a gay agenda" here at scouter.com

>>I am now confused as to what we are discussing on this thread...Taxes on Scout Shoes on Airplane Crashes?

Well of course every program has their own habits and traditions, but each scout in our PLC used the SPL Handbook and Patrol Leaders Handbook to help maintain some continuity between elections and positions. Barry

>> I'm currently putting together a Merit Badge Academy and I can't tell ya how many no's I've gotten or no answers to emails or phone calls

I agree Beav, the first thought about the Tourist Tax article was the repercussion of the tax. For every action there is a reaction. Black market snacks in nearby restrooms? Barry

Well I certainly understand the concern of proper behavior at the memorial, we have the bombing memorial here in Oklahoma City. But I thought the "almost cheerful" atmosphere was an interesting comment. There was a few opinions in the newspaper the last few year commenting how the culture seems to be getting too relaxed in our behaviors. One opinion claimed that dress down fridays are part of the cultural tilt toward rude behaviors. Well, I don't know about that, but I think airlines could make a little more by charging extra for flip flops. Flip flops set the travel dress bar very low and can be a safe issue in a crash. Barry

I'm always intrigued with government attempts to control behavior. It kind of goes under the the heading of The guy with the biggest stick annology I use now and then. But I never expected a Tax to teach us manners? I don't expect a debate NJ, just some interesting reading. It is forbidden to encamp or erect makeshift shelters and stop to eat or drink in zones which have a particular historic or architectural value, reads the ordinance adopted by Rome city council. "This is a way to re-educate people about how to behave in this city. We've let standards fall," Viviana Di Capua, member of an association of historic district residents, told the paper. http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/10/02/tourists-snacking-in-rome-could-be-fined-hundreds-dollars/?intcmp=features Barry

>>It should be interesting to see how the projections of the younger generation changing the dynamic goes as they get older. Many of us have found ourselves discarding things about which we had strong opinions as youth, in favor of more middle of the road attitudes.

>>It's damnable that parents push their kids on the track, and horrible that the scout program has put this up as the Big Goal of it all.