Eagledad

>>It's not just da Canadians, eh? Most of da rest of the Scouting World runs on the Group model, and has done so ... forever. It's a more tested and proven design in a much wider variety of circumstances and cultures. It's da BSA approach which is the odd man out.

>>Some of da advantages in consolidatin' on the committee level is that it gets da committee out of the hair of the youth and youth-contact leaders, eh?

>>All I am saying with the religious making the laws about morality, is that the majority of the US population is not in agreement.. You can do things like that in the southern states if you wish, until your children grow up and out-vote these laws

Before the Canadian Boy Scouts changed their program in the 90s, they had what many believed was the most successful Boy Scout program in the world using the one-unit system. So Im open to the idea depending how National changes the administration part. The BSA loses most of their membership between Webelos crossover and the first year of the Troop program. If a one-unit system could dramatically improve those losses, it would in my opinion be worth the effort. BArry

>>My unit functions this way now.

>>We have had many a debate on this forum.

>>This model would be based upon how the UK/Canada et all run their Units. It's a good system,

>>And we have already debated and condemned the biblic views ..

I dont think you can know if it would create more weaker troops, the reason the BSA loses so many scouts at the younger age is because administration of the pack program today burns out families before they get to the older program. The administration of the one-unit program has to be less complicated than the present Cub program for the program to even have a chance of improved performance. Can it do that? Also, I wonder if there is larger risk of losing more scouts because poor administration of the one unit would affect all the age groups instead of just a couple. Barry

Well not only that, I work from real data, not emtional presumptions. I know some folks have personal experiences with familes choosing not to join because of the gay issue, but I can name many reasons why families didn't join scouts through the years. I'm not convienced, "At All" that the gay issue is a significant numbers problem for the BSA at the moment. It certainly isn't in my area. Barry

>>Very interesting from an anthropological basis.

Update on the San Francico Public Nudity Ban. A few months ago I posted here that San Francisco was considering banning nudity because it had gotten a little out of control. I can't find the post in the archives, but it must be pretty bad for San Francisco to ban it, the vote comes up tomorrow. So what does this have to do with gay role models? Here is a guote from the todays AP article: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NUDITY_BAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-11-18-15-45-34 ""Supervisor Scott Wiener's proposal would make it illegal for a person over the age of 5 to "expose his or her genitals, perineum or anal region on any public street, sidewalk, street median, parklet or plaza" or while using public transit. ...........Exemptions would be made for participants at permitted street fairs and parades, such as the city's annual gay pride event and the Folsom Street Fair, which celebrates sadomasochism and other sexual subcultures."" Well of course, that makes sense doesn't it. There should be exemptions for Scoutmasters with other hobbies. But it does require the PLC to X-out those dates for camping. Barry

Our troop kind of works like Kudu's, but we called his ad hoc patrols adventure patrols. Something I try to mention once in a while that Kudu hints at is that not all scouts like big adventure. Many are in the troop for other reasons like socializing or leadership. I once polled the older scouts in our troop (43) and only 16 said they enjoyed going on the big high adventure treks every year. . We created our adventure patrols so scouts with different intrest could pull a bunch of scouts with like minded interest to go on their own outings. Many times that group is in the same troop campout, but doing more advanced activities. But saying that while many scouts arent into the Philmont type of adventure all the time, we are a backpacking troop. In most cases, our patrols could easily pack their gear and do a 5 mile trek without any preparation. So all our scouts do have some level of back country skills. In fact, a surprise hike would help the scouts learn where they need some practice, and it will be fun for most. Also Twocub's suggestion of just stepping the campouts up a notch works well. We added in canoeing a few times when were near a lake. We once did a backpack/biking/canoeing campout where the scouts got up, packed, hiked, and biked to a different campsite. The had so much fun because they redid all those activities during free time the rest of the day. They were dead a sleep by 8:30 that night. And, we did all that at a local camp. The campsite they moved to was only a few hundred feet from the first. I think you are in a good place. You are just in the rut of creativity. What we did when we hit this same wall and what Kudu is suggesting is open the program more and encourage the scouts to create some of their own minnie adventures that gives them more of that sense of freedom and independence. Most boys by nature soak up freedom and independence like a dry sponge. It also makes a boy feel more adult when the adults show a trust of their skills. Finally, so that you don't feel you are getting away from the values part of the program, set some requirements on them. A wise old SM suggested having our youth leaders always include activities under the themes of character, fitness, and citizenship. Surprisingly it's not as hard as it first sounds, most of the activities already require the scouts to do some action under those ideals. But preplanning them helps them see the noble side of the scouting program. The scouts really enjoyed taking ownership of those ideals. I nener had to ask what they planned, they were proud to show me. Lots of gold stuff here, it's a fun read. Barry

>>Can you elaborate on this non-answer? What "normal" morals don't gays follow?

>>I'd really love someone to explain to me just what is different between gay morals and straight morals,

>>They are expecting the young men to figure this out and automatically start Guiding and Enabling younger scouts when the older scouts have not been properly taught themselves.

>>I will say this... not having the experience of some of the folks here... and not wanting to experiment on a whole group of kids....

>>I found as SM, I most often took the easy path of less conflict.

>>For exactly the problems you describe, fully mixing ages top to bottom doesn't work any better than aged-base patrols. Integrating patrols by age requires that all your older scouts are good at and ejoy working with younger kid. Clearly, that's not going to be the case.

>>The balance between letting buddies all stick together and having a good mix of ages is not a simple fix.

I admire your vision for an integrated troop attitude. My experience is that mixed age patrols work best for an integrated troop culture. But I will let you research ideas for your approach. What I wanted to point out is that you have nature working against you at the moment, so you need to persevere with that approach over time. It can't happen overnight and here is a couple reasons that experienced scouters have learned: Boys before puberty are like dry sponges absorbing just about everything they see from the mentors around them. Not lecture, but actions. And by mentors, I mean those they respect and like, which are usually older boys. Boys after puberty are like fully soaked sponges that are no longer learning because nature, through puberty, has rewired the boy into a man ready to take on the world using only the knowledge he learned before puberty. What you have at age 14 is basically what you have the rest of their scouting career. Humans after puberty basically only learn new knowledge when it benefits their personal perspective of life, like girls. What Im saying is older scouts rarely accept new programs changes. New scouts are required to change program cultures because they are still a dry sponge. You already admit the problem of aged base patrols creating segregation with the scouts in the troop. That is natural because animals by nature hide in the herd they trust for their survival. So you have to develop the safe herd you want the young scout to learn on his first day and the old scout trust on his last day. The obvious answer to reaching your vision is directing a program with a lot of activities where young scouts observe and work with scouts of all ages all the time. But the Key to a successful cultural change is total acceptance of this model before puberty. As I said, you are in most cases stuck with the scout you got after puberty, so focus on the young scout, not the old. Change comes when the young student becomes the old trusted mentor. Whatever approaches you decide to use to shape your program, plan on a couple of years of persistence before you see a general acceptance of your vision. Good luck Barry

>>I'd like to hear from National how they've received additional funding from others that offset the losses from UPS, Intel and the United Way. It's not about big company donors or membership like most people think, it's the big donor alumni. A vast amount of support comes from alumni and it's that support that the BSA is resting (has always rested) it hat on. It's hard to know the tipping point of pop culture morality over the support of aging alumni, but you can be assured that money tips the scale. Barry

>>I vote for the virtural Roundtable. Anyone else who wants to get together monthly is more than welcome to continue to do so.

This might be a red flag Backroads, it's my observation that whining professionals don't last very long. It's not going to get better. Barry

Just to be clear, this guy was just quoting something said 50 years ago and you are offended by the language of the quote? I can understand, some words are offensive even from quotes. I can think of a few words that might motivate me to say something. I kind of the same experience yesterday, I work in a predominately liberal department and a couple of folks were having a discussion about the election in the hallway that would be offensive to most Christians. They did not know anyone could hear the conversation. Should I have said something? One final thing about this subject, we have had discussions on this forum about how much tolerance should be given to scouts cussing. Some scouters here are pretty tolerant, but shouldn't we set an example to prepare scouts for their adult life like in your experience above? Barry