Eagledad

Your response Twocub is exactly the reason I don't like same age patrols in a boy run troop. Growth is a lot slower without experienced role models. Barry

I learned over the years that 50 percent of the SMs time is working with and teaching the adults how your program desgin works. Parents by nature are protective of their kids, so you have to get used to them standing up when they see their son at a disadvantage. Good SMs listen to consider the parents question so as to learn where they (the SM) might need to consider improving either the message or that part of the program. It's not always a matter of right or wrong, it's whether you can improve. When a mom approached me that her son wasn't earning his Eagle fast enough, I improved my message of how our program works to visiting families and families of new scouts so they would understand my approach to advancement. I also learned how the many activities and processes like elections and picking patrols fit in the bigger picture so that I could explain how the little parts of my program worked together to reach the vision for their son. In this case with your ASM, if you feel that the method you tried worked with the scouts and will improve the troop for the future, then practice a simple explination that you think will help your ASM understand. Listen to his points and counter with yours. Tell him that you will humble yourself before him if it fails. Or, accept what he is saying as a good input and try something different. Either way,what you learn from this experience will help you do it better the next time a parent calls.

Who said boot him from scouting?

Nobody said boot him out, I was discussing mental health. As for the jab, I'm not sure who you are refering, but you do know that zombies aren't real. Neither are vanpires.

That is the answer I expected. OK thanks.

No, they both need help. You think yourself the smartest guy in the room, is there a point when the health of citizens in our community trumps political correctness?

I agree with you jrush, but I wonder if we have come to a place in our pop culture where it is more politcally correct to contribute to the degrading mental health of a boy who worships a rock than take some responsibility to point out the obvious. You can take that as far as you want, but when that boy becomes a man, do we really want some of the credit for helping him become the mental mess he might become. I'd feel a little better if I'd at least talked to his parents about it, even if they are likely the problem. And yes, I did have that discussion with the parents of scout who worshipped witches. The parents didn't worship witches, but they were the problem. Barry

Beav, you are a moderator? That is so cool. I feel like I know a movie star, let's have lunch so I can touch your hat. Barry

Your'e new SM, what are your ponderings? Barry

As a SM, I always mentored scouts to consider the consequenses of their decisions in the bigger picture of being a servant of the oath and law and to react accordingly. 99 times out of 100 the scouts reacted with favorable choices, at least to me. But we had a mentally retarded 16 year old scout who was very close to earning his Eagle aggressively point a knife at another scout, and I just couldn't get him to see the wrong of his action. Since I wasn't trained as counselor for the mentally handicapped, I always invited the Scout's father to observe my dicussions with his son. He is an Eagle and a Silver Beaver, so he fully understands the process and I will never forget the deep sorrow I saw in his face when he realized that his son would not earn the Eagle. I think 99 times out of 100, young adults will do the right thing if they are presented with the consequenses of their actions in the bigger picture, but there will always be that one who just won't get it. Should the 99 be judged the same as the one? Each SM is different in the style of building citizens of character and leaders of integrity. How do we judge one style over the other? I wish deciding who wins and who looses was so easy, but when we see the blood, sweat and tears as a scout strives to develop a noble character, things are not a clear, at all. Just like our own lives, scouts have complicated lives as well. The curse of a SM is feeling the pain of showing each scout their reality. The reward is watching them grow.

While I agree to a lot of what Pack says, a servant of the community can't be oblivious to it's expected standards of being a good citizen. That would be selfserving, which is not a trait of the noble Eagle. That being said, I've been the SM of several hundred scouts. One of my very best scouts in both character and skills found himself a father at age 16 just after completing his Eagle project. That scout lives close and we still see each other from time to time because he is my sons best friend. He graduated Oklahoma State in four years with two degrees in Engineering and is now the father of three kids. He is also the Cub Master of the same Pack that I Cub Mastered him. Packsaddle is right, character isn't so much in not stumbling, but how we handle ourselves after we stumble.

There is no reqirments that have to be met during a ECOR for the scout to receive his regalia. The agenda of the ceremony is typically troop tradition or what the family wants. I don't agree that "short is better" either, it would be same as a groom's father telling the mother of a bride that "shorter is better". The Eagle is as important to some families as a wedding or as umimportant as first graders garduation. I learned rather quickly not to give "any" opinion or tell the family how they should feel about it. Just present them with some ideas and let them decide what they want. I once presented the Eagle badge to a scout in a one minute ceremony at the scouts house with only his family attending. I also don't agree that it should always be the scout's choice. Sometimes the best choice for a scout is allow his family to honor their son. My first ECOR was a young man who wasn't suppose to live past age 6 because of a heart deformity. That scouts parents celebrate everyday as if their son was just born. The ECOR for our deaf scout was the same.

The scouts focus is wrong. I had this same discussion with a scout who didn't want his eagle because the BSA didnt accept gays. The values Learned from the scouting experience aren't about judging the haviors of others, instead the values are how the scout himself behaves to "all" others. Ask the scout to slowly say the Scout Oath. Then do the same with the law. Then ask the scout which individuals the scout should do his best. Then ask what it means to do his best. Being an Eagle is setting the example of living the scout oath and law to all people. We all judge behavior everyday, but Eagles by their example show those around themselves how to behave around others despite their behavior. Shift his focus off National and on to how he sets the example of doing his best to live the values of the oath and law.

Even being recalled should be the scout's choice from the council of his mentor. Adults tend to loose patience and pull the trigger too fast if they have the power of deciding who is a good leader. Much better to practice mentoring skills.

I think the key word here is "loyalty". Loyalty is a selfless action to preserve the relationship with the team. Was the scout loyal to his troop? Barry

Not sure what you are saying, extra adults? We don't have a Venturing Crew associated with the troop and we don't have any permanant venture patrols. A scout of any age in the troop can start a temporary crew anytime he wants for any kind of outside troop activity. Even our Philmont Crews are temporary crews that go away when the trek is over. We've had as many as six temporary crews organizing at the same time because treks can be planned out as far as 18 months in advance. Many of our scouts are also active with OA and that can take up a lot of their time as well. So to not disrupt the troop program, we encourage all other scout activities be done outside the troops activities. As I said, it's an expectation. We certainly don't set limits on scouts ability to manage time, I had an SPL once who was also a member of a Venturing Crew. He took full responsibility for planning a Montana Backpacking trip. He was special kid and his SPL duties didn't suffer at all, including going to summercamp before his backpacking trek. Barry

Our troop policy is that the Scout's troop responsibility comes before any other scouting activity. Most of the members of our PLC are typically are members of a Troop Tempary Trk Crew, Venturing Crew and OA and we have yet to have any real problem. The understanding is the troop comes first. Barry

Just saw this thread and want to say that Twocub and Vividi are giving great wisdom on the subject. Program expectations should be given to the families before their sons join. The SM bares the responsibility of teaching all troop adults how the program will implemented to the scouts and the vision the troop is striving to meet. There Shouldn't be any surprises, only explanations for further understanding. Barry

>>No I haven't taken a crew to philmont.......<< Well then it’s informative for inexperienced adults to learn that Philmont tells each crew to do “Thorns and Roses†discussions during the trek because they experienced so many complaints by scouts who were being pushed around by adults who thought they knew everything. The Thorns and Roses discussions are supposed to be a safe way for the scouts to tell the adults to back off. Philmont also started asking crews to assign chaplins for the same reason. Some adults just don’t play well when they get tired and sometimes the Philmont staff escorts an adult off the mountain to wait for their crew to finish the trek, which is a big reason why Philmont request at least three adults per crew. I know of one situation where an adult was reported to DHS. Building, training and guiding a crew is not the same as scoutmastering a troop of patrols. The OPs question is very common, especially among new adult leaders. I know you are the smartest person here Base, but you will have to forgive those of us idiots who have the t-shirt if we don’t give your advice a lot of weight. A back country trek can be very stressful for a crew that is not physically and mentally prepared for several hours of intense physical exercise in extreme weather conditions. Add to that those adults who join the crew for their own personal adventure and find they have little patience for the slower pace and decisions of the boys. Our best crew was eight seasoned 16 year old boys who took two dads that had never backpacked before. The adults didn’t know enough to tell the scouts what to do and the scouts took a personal responsibility to make sure the dads survived. I still hear great stories from that trek. By the way, I was thinking the same as Beav on this. I know it’s not that simple because I’ve been there a few times, but the whole Philmont experience is still about scouts learning the value of moral decision making. The crew leader should set the example of meeting the requirments for the trek. Barry

Have you taken a crew to Philmont Base? Barry

Pack, are suggesting a moral dilemma because I don’t see one. Let’s add a third choice to make your scenario more interesting, a convicted serial killer who is scheduled to be executed in 24 hours. For me there isn’t a moral dilemma for the fireman who uses a slider bar to set the conditions of life because they will simply adjust their values at that moment to justify their decision. One lives and two die. But neither is there a moral conflict with the fireman who sets no conditions and believes all life is equal because they can’t change the inevitable fact that one will live and two will die. From the morality perspective, who they choose to save is irrelevant. Barry

>>I believe that atheism has lead me to become even more moral than I was as a child of religion.<< I can understand that, atheism gives a freedom of not being tied to any specific moral doctrine. Atheists feel more moral because they can create their moral conduct for any situation or any mood. Today life is precious after the first trimester, tomorrow life changes to being precious after the second trimester. The next day life changes to be precious after….. I can certainly see the temptation of atheism. Barry

I can't express my shock and grief. He was a great scouter and made this a better place. I know he loved this scouting stuff. He is missed. Barry

>>Niether old nor far right. But I do enjoy firing up liberals who................ I also enjoy firing up conservatives the same way. You see, the problem with the far left and the far right is they …bla bla bla. . We may or may not agree on things but it's those types of attacks that prevent constructive dialog

>>and then interpreting (more like mis-interpreting as every passage has dozens or more different interpretations) it's meaning to bend it to their beliefs..<< How do you know? Is any kind of interpretation really the problem? Several folks on this forum believe the bible is nothing more than an over-interpreted history book. How would they know what is mis-interpreted? From these definitions, I think most of us here are Scouter Thumpers. Barry