Eagledad

There is something there. Individuality? fairness maybe, I don't know, but we had several special needs scouts, who struggled outside of scouts, excel in the troop. Barry

I look at it as providence. I was an ASM while I was the CM, so I gained the experience to know what the Webelos needed for a FUN program. While we couldn't find another Webelos leader, three volunteered to assist. And, the other parents were great. So, I did the planning and let the parents lead the activities. I think we did it right because one scout who went to a different troop told me at his Eagle ceremony that his Webelos experience was the most fun he had in scouts. Barry

So true. I have a lot of stories here. I'm sure elitts does as well. One story is that I gave up the CM position to be the Webelos leader of 16 scouts. No, we aren't supposed to do that. Barry

The maturity between 1 and 2 is huge. The 2nd graders are about the same maturity of 3 and 4. My thinking is pre-K, K and first grade. And, I being told by my adult kids that kindergarten is the new first grade. So, it could get worse. While I think the Webelos program is pretty well designed, I believe the 2nd year Webelos need to get more involve with Troops. Not a lot, but enough to make the program more fun. Webelos is where the packs suffer the most with adult burnout. So, if the troops could assist the leaders with program, that would be a huge influence toward improving the crossover numbers. Barry

Curious, Walmart has insurance that covers for customers who hurt themselves falling in their parking lot. Does Walmart have a reputation of customers falling in their parking lot? I imagine just as much reputation as BSA's history of child sex abuse. Barry

I don't concern myself much with competition. As much as I harp of how the Cub program hurts the Troop program, it brings in 97% of the membership. If a Scouting group wants to seriously compete with the BSA, they need to heavily market an attractive Cub level program. That would hurt, if not kill, the BSA. Barry

Well said. I agree with the how the program can impact the community. One year I learned that 6 of the 7 students voted as leaders by the high school student body were scouts in our troop. The 7th was a girl. None of those scouts told me, I learned it later from a teacher. Surely that can't be coincidence in a school of 2800 students. Barry

Sounds like a great troop. Ours functioned much the same way. I instructed the scouters in my adult training classes that if they would focus on a quality older scout program, they will inherit a quality younger scout program. Troops tend to do the reverse leaving the older scout program as more of just a hang out for the scouts and fill in when they are needed. Older scouts need to set the tone of the program just as you said so the younger scouts learn good habits simply by seeing them in action. Barry

Of course, but we are talking about taking the older mentor scouts out of the loop. prepubescent boys instinctively tend to herd for protection. Leadership forces them on the open away safety, so heavy mentoring gets them through it. But, 13 year olds are not older scouts and adults aren't good models to mimic. Barry

This is probably where scouting will go, for insurance purposes, but it is the death of scouting as a program where youth develop character through the process of making independent decisions. My experience is under 14 scouts aren't instinctively mature for leadership, leaving the adults to intercede when the growth stalls. Scouting is the one true program that develops maturity to confront the realities of adulthood. Now what? Barry

That’s all quite a reach without hard facts. That being said, what do you propose to make sure it doesn’t happen again? Barry

I don’t know, the scandal of a public school coach caught. abusing girls has been in our news all week. There is probably at least one sex abuse scandal in a public school every week somewhere in the US. That is a lot of scandals. So, let’s replace BSA in your example with “your child’s school” in all public schools and imagine how parents should respond. Should National Leaders shut down all local public schools? Inherent danger? I’m trying to imagine 85,000 school teacher sex abusers. Even with all the press, that still seems like a lot. Barry

I think the moderators have done as good as they can in holding the posters to a scout like tone. And I’ve not always been so kind with my opinions of the mods. The discussion is being dominated by emotionally fueled posters who believe they are the smartest contributors in the thread. Add newer members who expect extra leeway with the victim card, and the discussion gets very one-sided. Fine as long it stays on the facts of chapter 11, but most folks here have a vested interest in the future of the program, so any opinions about the future of the program can draw expected responses. It’s a complement to the mods that victims feel safe in this forum. But, being scout-like means there has to be fairness, balance, and respect for all the members, including the passionate members who have a stake in the future of the program. After all this is a scouting form. Barry

Our troop had a reputation for being a safe place for many reasons. One reason was it was safe for scouts to make wrong choices and not be shamed for it. Wrong choices were considered a requirement for character growth. But we also had a reputation where scouts were physically and mentally safe. Several families with physically and mentally handicapped sons picked our troop because of our reputation. We also had active scouts who were there because it was safe from mental and physical abuse at home. just from the number of scouts in our troop who used our program as a safe refuge, I’m confident there are many many times more of them than scouts abused in their units. That is not to take away from those who were abused, they have the right to seek justice. But there should be balanced in the discussion. Barry

It will be interesting to see how volunteers are guided to deal with tenting two scouts of the same identified gender, but opposite biological gender. I read where a UK Girl Scout Professional was fired for not allowing opposite biological genders' in the showers at the same time. We live in complex times. Barry

Reminds me of one Webelos summer camp in 1993 where a female Webelos leader was asked to leave camp because she walked in the shower area to tell (shouted) her scouts that they were staying in the shower area too long. The whole camp could hear those scouts laughing and joking around. The scouts where in their swimsuits and she was just being a mom walking in the shower area without thinking to tell them to quit messing around and holding up the showers for the rest of the camp. That was when we knew Youth Protection was getting really serious. Barry

Totally agree. My Paintball analogy reflects the same thought. My guess is that organizing strangers into a functional group is a different type of organization skill The reason the Girl Scouts are able to do it so well is because they learned over the years in their Troop. I did an exercise like this at each of our Council JLT training. After all the participants arrived to course, we gave them 15 minutes to organize into patrols of 7 with each scout assigned to a POR position. The only restriction was no two scouts from the same troop could be in a patrol. Barry

Sure, with two older sons and a little girl trailing, I learned there and at other youth organizations that girls tend to fixate on being organized while boys tend to be more adventure oriented. And, in general, girls tend to think in a small picture of details while the boys think in the big picture. What I found is that the young girls will take over a group of boys when it comes to planning and organizing because they like dealing with details. Ever watch very young girls play house? Boys willingly give that up because they hate the tedious small stuff in organizing. What is more frustrating about those trends is that adults interpret the girls organization skills as good leadership skills, when that isn't the case. Girls struggle a lot with the chaos of group dynamics. Boys do to, but only when they don't agree on the goals. And I get so tired of adults bragging about the girls organizational skills to motivate boys to step up. It only frustrates boys relationship and trust with the adults. Growth comes much easier for both groups when they are dealing with the same general struggles of the group personalities because the growth gains from the decisions are basically the same. Or can be coached or mentored basically the same. Many believe boys are slower to mature, but the reality is that the instincts of the two genders appose each other so much that the nature tendency for adventure contrasted against organization makes the boys appear less mature. Throw a few boys together in a paint ball match and see how quickly they will make a plan. It's amazing really. Girls struggle just coming together as a group. This is not to say some boys are better at organization and some girls are adventure minded. But, in the big picture. the two genders don't mix well until puberty. AND that has it's own struggles. Barry

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize. But, I could see all girl patrols working within the true patrol method since the personal challenges wouldn't be gender specific. The problems of natural instincts fade as each gender reaches puberty, so I don't think older scout leadership is a big problem at the older ages. It's not perfect, but we live in a culture that cares less about maximin potential growth of the youth. Barry

I agree. I've yet to talk to anyone who cares how this comes out. They believe Scouting will move on as it has. I remember when many folks believe the gay restriction would kill the BSA, then they said allowing gays would kill the BSA. Some felt restricting ashiest will kill the BSA. Restricting girls was killing the program. Admitting girls will kill the program. Just about every person who I saw give these predictions had a history of other anti-BSA rants.. The BSA is a 110 years old, give or take, and has the distinct reputation of developing values and character in the scouts who participated. General quotes that the BSA is unsafe or the BSA neglects the scouts doesn't really ring in a culture where teachers, ministers, coaches and family members are in the news everyday for child abuse. Folks know that scout units are run by parents and friends, not the BSA. It's the BSA, it's the Scout Leader parents and the bad ones are in the other unit down the street. If the BSA survives bankruptcy, scouting will go on because it provides the parents with a program of developing values and provides the scouts a program of fun. And frankly, when compared to other youth organizations, the BSA is safer than most. Barry

I may be corrected, but I think the answer is "no", parents aren't required on all communications. Just a 3rd person. Of course the unit may have additional policies. Barry

The older Eagles are friends and relatives in their mid 60's. The friends do not know the relatives. My Eagle son was contacted as well. None of these Eagles were victims. Barry

That isn't true. Some folks just want to see the facts.. Barry

Good post. I have no trouble with the anger. I struggle with how the vague numbers are used as fact. One way or the other. When data can't be defended, it becomes a weapon for both sides of debate. Doing this was a big no no in debate class back in high school because it gets nowhere. The 82,000 has gone nowhere for a long time. Better to leave this thread as a reporting the facts of the case. Barry

Hmm, not enough data. Barry