Eagledad

Great question as always acco. First, The arguement of the bible being written by man is only relevant for folks needing an excuse to not act holy. Next (new paragraph), The conduit of moral education is the honest evaluation of our behavior from the consequenses of our actions and comparing that behavior to a given set of guidelines and parameters. Man has choice, either change the behavior to live by the rules, or change the rules so as not to feel guilty about the behavior. Just like in developing character from the Scout oath and law, the conduit of moral education is "growth" from making the right choices after the review of previous choices. Finally (another paragraph change), in reference with the Fruits of the Spirit, would we be living in a different world if everyone was taught from the day they were born to live by the Fruits of the Spirit? Barry

Some folks are born with a servant style of behavior and are naturals with servant leadership nomatter the culture of the program. But to develop a servant leadership style for all the youth leaders in the troop, a servant lifestyle must be part of the culture. And that really depends on the adults, or more pointedly, the dominant adult leader who is typically the SM. It's very difficult to teach and old dog new tricks because if an older scout wasn't brought up in a servant leadership culture, they struggle to change to any other kind of style. I certainly wouldn't give up hope on EG144, but he has a difficult road a head if his troop culture doesn't encourage a servant style of behavior. I wish him the best, this can be a life changing opportunity. Barry

Khaliela is right, a trusted loyal person doesn't quit when The chips are down. If the election was a popularity thing, then the troop needs you more than ever. You need to show true unselfish servant leadership and be the SPLs most trusted assistant. Those scouts stick out. Good post Khaliela

You are understanding the problem correctly and it is a browser problem. Barry

I read some of your replies to my post and they are a bit out there. I think you must have me confused with someone else because I didn't write anything about the Civil War. I simply spoke a few words on just morality. You kind of went off in a lot of directions. By t he way I'm keeping this response simple, I hit return by mistake and as a result I'm typing this reply a second time. What a mess. My message was simple, as long as man follows man's morality, there will never be peace because man's morlity changes almost daily from ambitioin and greed. God is neither ambitious or greedy and His morality never changes. What did you think of the Fruits of the Spirit? That is a small example of character traits God ask man to display. Kind of like the Scout Law. Barry

The text editor doesn't work. Everytime I try to do a copy, I'm kicked out of the Scouter.com editor. I'm kicked out when I hit return to start a new paragraph. That is why my post are just one big long paragraph. Sorry. Quazse, I used chapter instead of book because I wasn't sure DWise knew the difference. My bad, I oppoligize to both of your. Barry

I've spent a lot of time working with troops with crews and your success is rare indeed. We have one troop in our district that could be viewed as a success because the crew has been around a long time, but the troop is an Eagle mill and very few scouts stay in the troop past age 14. Sounds like you have a good group of adults.

The problem with venturing is that it's used as troop older scout program. The failing of troops to provide a good older scout program motivates the adults to start venturing crews as a way to keep the older scouts in the program. I think we found something like 1 out of 5 venturing crews survived more than three years. And that is a result of the adults who started the crew leaving. The crews that existed when I was in Explorers back in the 70s are still around because they aren't older scout troop programs. They have a program more focused to a theme like scuba, aviation, police, fire safety, and so on. Crews that are started from troops fail because their vision is short sighted ( if they even have a vision) and unorganized (just like their troop). I will agree that National is part of the problem because they switched from using Explorers as a career teaching purpose to using Venturing for reaching out to more youth. It really doesn't matter the theme, the success of a Crew depends on the long range vision (10 to 20 years down the road) and building consistent process plan that continually uses the activities of the theme toward the vision. Sailing isn't just about sailing, it's a constant theme of teaching skills to navigate a complicated vessel to specific destinations. As the crew members get better at their sailing skills, they are encouraged to plan future activities and lead teams to accomplish the goals. Our troop had the largest number of scouts 14 and older of any unit in the council. As a result we were constantly being hit on by the DE to start a venturing crew. I took every opportunity to school council to why our troop program was a success and their Venturing program was not. but I could see they were only acting on higher direction, and ignorance. Successful Crews generally have a sponsor that is well experienced in the theme. Then the passion for activities and growth remain consistent over time even as leadership passes on. I don't think Crews pull away youth leaders from troops unless the troops don't have a satisfying older scout program. We had several scouts in our troop that were also active in different Crews. We looked at it as more outside activities like OA for the boys to enjoy their journey in scouts.

Wow, Dwise1, I just saw all this and we could have an enjoyable discussion. Sadly my Scouter.com editor doesn't work well and you wrote A LOT. But I will give you this, when I speak of my God, I am speaking of a real living God. When you speak of any god, you refer to the actions of man. Until you can at least keep the discussion apples to apples, it will be hard to understand at least my side of the discussion. In simplicity, God is omnipotent, He is perfect. Man is neither, not even close. Oh as for the 39 books of the NT, you said you didn't even get to th epart where Lot was suduced by his daughters. That is in the first quarter of the first chapter of 39 chapters. Barry

Who else saw that the discussion leave the reservation after my first point. Qwazse, I enjoy your post, but I think you're half of the discussion is so deep with slavation that DWise's adolescent view of God can't understand value of religious morality, much less Christain morality. Before I try to contribute on a more pragmatic level, I would like to suggest DWise to do a search on "Fruits of the Spirit" and compare them with the Scout Law. Now on the basis of morality, all folks live by a moral code of some kind. For the sake of this dicussion, moral code is the code we use to define acts of right and wrong. Where mankind struggles is having to follow a moral code with parts they may not agree. Usually folks are willing to take the good with the bad, but when the masses of a society decide to follow only those parts of the code they pick and choose, chaos eventually follows.And then one way or another order will be forced by what I call the person with the biggest stick. Except for the civil war, the United States has had a relativlye peaceful history because the guy with the biggest stick has been the Judeo Christian God. Peace is easy when the majority of society follow one set of rules. Well easy within the context of peace versus chaos. But times are changing, people today or more self centered, which doesn't fit well in a religiously concieved moral code. The main difference between moral code defined by man and code defined by God is that God's moral code is pretty consistant through time, man's code changes fast and often. When man grabs (is given) the big stick, it is usually by political will and that never last long. If a person is truely willing to read the whole bible and understand it from a practical stand point, they will see that man at the core is corrupt, narcissitic and ambitious. The moral code they create is one of convenience that not only helps further their ambitions, but also typically ignores the meek. God has none of those self-centered traits, so the meek are the high priority because the actions of His moral code are selfless actions to enhanse lives of everyone toward a peaceful existance. I believe Dwise is truely an antheist because he appears repulsed by a living God, That he couldn't get half way through the first book of 39 in the Old Testeament or Pauls New Testament guidance of a living God proves it. Dwise does Jesus's simple rules of conduct beause they are obvious actions of peace, he just doesn't like them coming from from an invisible omnipotent source. The God in Genesis doesn't have his fatherly image. Ironic that Jesus is God in both the Old and New Testament. Still Dwise believes in a peaceful coexistance and understands following rules of right and wrong are how we get there. I agree with him about the virtues of Scout Law and Oath. I am curious to see how his moral code can stand up the man who takes the big stick. Barry

NIce blog, you have a good grasp of the bigger picture. I can't really add anything to what honor means because you and the other posters already relayed my thoughts. Well done. You certainly love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm a little embarrassed to admit I'm entertianed by the hand wringing in this thread. In all my 30 or more years of scouting, the only memories that turn my stomach come from some of the post in this forum. Sadly this seems to be a place where malcontents come to feel good about themselves.

You nailed it, the scouts simply don't know how. Sending a scout into leadership without some skills is like sending them in the cave without a flashlight. They are just going to bump their heads feeling their way around. We developed "plannng" skills by teaching a few simple steps. First Make a list of monthly themes for meetings and campouts. YOu know fun things like fishing, backpackingand rappelling. Ask each patrol to contribute three different ideas. The adults get to throw in three as well. Write them an the wall for all to see. Then have the scouts vote on the best suggestions. Next, do camping locations. This works best if you can bring in some vacation books with camping sites. Let the scouts ponder through the and throw out some ideas. Then set dates on big calenders that everyone can. In everything scouts do, break up large task like planning, into a few simple small task so scouts don't focus on the mountain they have to climb, just the steps that get them there. Get scouts to use agendas for every meeting. Our SPL runs and average of 100 PLC meetings every six month. Patrols leaders should run at least 25 to 30. Those meeting go alot easier and faster when the scouts use the agenda as a quick guide. Agendas should be simple: Officer reports, old business, new business and sometimes a closing. Twocubs ban of poptarts isn't really so much a ban as it is teaching healthy lifestyle. A scout is clean, teach them how to be clean. Scouts will buy into health and safety, they just don't like adults making up rules because they are adults. Our scouts could have poptarts, but they still had to cook and include the three food groups. I never had to ban anything, I just asked them if it was healthy and to change the policy if wasn't. We had the same issue with pop. It got out of control, I asked the PLC if it was healthy and they discussed it and change the policy. Teach them, trust them, let them go. If you did it right, they will come back to you asking for more. Why, because learning skills of life gives them indpendence and they love independence. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Excellent post Twocub, excellent. Your post also applies to those troops that don't cook breakfast on Sunday so that they can break camp faster and get home sooner. The meal is scouting's best activity for developing character growth. Don't skip a single opportunity. It is so powerful infact, some troops refuse to attend a summer camp with a dinnng hall. Barry

Then she probably doesn't have insurance and she should be in jail. Asking about insurance makes us aware of the responsibility and whether we want that responsibility or not. And training is keeping a lot of adults out of the program. Scoutmaster Specific was a 24 hour class. Ssometimes adults just can't fit a course in their schedule which prevents them from participating at all. I redesgined our District training program just so we could provide more training for the average working person.

Hi LH, I been there and have the shirt. I have a few shirts in fact because I helped a few other troops in your situation. MattR gave an excellent post which describes the direction our troop went, so I will give a few words on the older scouts. My advice is if you want to keep the older scouts, let them have their program because they will not change much. What boys learn up to puberty is what you are stuck with after. It's human nature that you need to understand for your young scouts. But just give in to the idea that your new program will have to be built from the young scouts. Use the older scouts best as you can for teaching skills and leading hikes, but don't push them so hard they don't come back. Just let them do their thing so they get some growth from the program. YOU focus on building the habits of a boy run troop with the young guys. Older scouts will be frustrating at first, but you will get used to blending the two programs until they age out. Just make sure the younger scouts are using the program you want so they teach it to the younger scouts when they get older. It's a lot of work, but I promise the rewards are great. Our troop went from 12 to 100 in seven years and we had the reputation of the most boy run troop in the council. We didn't want to be a big troop, but we coudn't turn them away either. We averaged 2 older scouts a month transfering from other troops because they wanted to have more fun then the troop they where in. So there is hope, just as MattR keeps pointing out with his troop, if you build it, they will come. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Normal in that reference is a heterosexual sexual relationship. More mature meaning that sex with another person of the same sex is considered healthy while the desire for sex with the horse is not.

Which one? My editor is a real pain, so just pick one.

Hey, you were the one that made accusations of my personal relationships to counter my opinion, I think it's relevant that you can't particpate in a discussion without trying to attack someones character. It seems you just make up the rules as you go along in these discussions.

Parceling words doesn't change what you implied Pack. You can't have an honest discussion when accussing people of actions that you no nothing about. The best you can do is agree to disagree, but trying to discredit my words with hyberbole is bad acting.

I agree with everything you siad Moose, but it doesn't change anything I've said previously.

Im saying that your self righteous to think that only your are capable of treating all people equally even when you don't agree with everything about them.

I don't buy it Pack, just because folks don't agree that homosexuality is normal doesn't mean they aren't accepted and treated as equals in every other way. That's pretty self righteous thinking.

You're stereotyping, I don't recall commenting on gay marriage. My opinions are of the health and morality of homosexuality.

It amazes me that some people consider the desire for a mate of the same sex as more mature than the desires of any other kind of relationship. Folks keep wanting to equalize homosexuality as a normal healthy lifestyle when my observations of friends and family are anything but. Oh sure, some gays find a stable relastionship, but that isn't normal for that lifestyle. On the whole, gays are some of the loneliest people I know.