Eagledad

Thanks Sentine1947, that is a good read. I expecially appreciate what he said about older scouts: "older scouts aren't as interested in doing new, different, big things as they are in the patrol system. They are endlessly inspired and energized when they have a real resonsibility with the accomplishment and freedom that comes from governing themselves." This is my observation as well and is completely opposite of what most scouters believe. As I said before, age 14 is where I think real growth starts because the scouts get to serve the other scouts and there is a genuine satisfaction that comes from making other peoples lives better. Adults should strive to build a program that gives the older scout that opportunity. A successful Troop program is the result of a successful older scout program. Thanks again Sentine. Barry

We took a single bed size sheet with us incase we only needed to sleep on the sleeping bag. It is very light doesn't take up much room. Our experience is if you pack right, personal gear only takes up about 3rd of the pack at most. I found the scouts had fun creating ways to ligten up their gear. I agree that even in the 80's we used gear and wore clothing that seems obsurd now (cowboy boots). But the greatest additon to modern gear that I will never be without is the hip belt. That one thing made all the difference for me between being miserable and having a great day. Barry

Boy run is very dependent on the maturity growth of the adults. I have to say Matt you have done well there. Posters on this forum respond in two different ways, either from a postion of humilty, or a postion of pride. Yours is a position of humilty and it is very refreshing. I think you are seeing what I mean by guiding the scouts in a general direction instead of following a set course. While it is important for the adults to have a good grasp of the goals, how the scouts reach those goals isn't that important. That is hard for adults to grasp, but even harder to practice when they do grasp it. I really like your idea of the scouts creating their job responsibilties. But that isn't easy for them either. As you said before, there is the gray area of trust between the scouts and adults. So it really has to be a team effort. Here is how I did it, by the way a scouter on a forum gave me this suggestion. I teach all my new PLCs the Aims and methods of scouting. I explain that the 3 Aims are the adults responsibilities, and the 8 Methods are the scouts' responsibilities. The PLCs responsibilities also are to insure that Character, Fitness and Citizenship are practiced in all the campouts and major activities. That way the PLC understands that they basically have free rain over the program provided their program includes the 8 Methods and includes activities that practice the 3 Aims. See what I mean by a general direction without setting an exact course. Now, you can't do this all at once, scouts need to mature and build a trust in the adults. And the adults need to mature faster than the scouts so they don't get in the way. Boy run isn't easy, but it is rewarding. As it comes together, you will find yourself loving this scouting stuff. Barry

My bad Stosh, but I wasn't implying that the Eight Methods related to your 95% directive comment. I just wonder how any adult can come up with hard numbers for any aspect of the program when it comes to scout growth. Each scout has different experiences and different maturities which requires different approaches for developiing growth. I question hard numbers to describe a boy run program because hard numbers tend to limit program and discourage an independent program where scouts are free to choose. I'm sure we are coming from two opposite ends of how to work with youth even though we have the same goals. All adults who work with youth do it under their own set of principes. One principle for me is to challenge each scout where he is at in his maturity and experience. The value of that principle is that we never stop challenging a scout to grow. Sounds simple but I find most troops stop growth after a scout gets to first class. As a result, they get boree and generally look for something different after age 14. I personally think 14 is where the best growth starts. And since I believe all boys are different in maturity and experience, I have to challenge each scout differently. A scout who has good leadership skills but is weak in camping skills will get more guidence in the Camping Method than Leadership. I'm not concerned about about a balance of hard numbers, I rather look at it as applying the right tool at the right time. When I see 95% directives, my first thought is can an 11 year old SPL do the task of 17 year old SPL. Well the answer is obvious, of course he can't. What does he lack? Where does he accell? This is why I think a boy run program is much more challenging for adults than adult run programs. Adult run measures all scout equally against the same expectations. They are generally a well uniformed troop because they expectation is the same for all scouts, no matter what they would really choose if given the choice. I have never seen a perfectly dressed boy run troop because not all boys agree to choose correctly. Adutls in boy run program deal with each scout's individual choice of right and wrong. And generally, adults in the boy run troops rarely dictate the right answer, but instead guide the scout in a general direction for him to experience a decision. Not many adults understand that when a scout voluntarily chooses to make right choices, he will stick with them. So I struggle with hard numbers you see because that just isn't my style of working with scouts. I believe grwoth comes when a scout chooses to grow and he won't voluntarily make that choice without a real life experience and some footing of ethics. I beleive that a boy run program is the best way to get a boy to that place. But how and where the adult fits in that model is very subjective because success depends on the maturity of the adults. A Boy Run Troop of 12 year old scouts looks completely different from a boy run troop of boys of all ages. The best adults are generally students of success for growth and voluntarily changing their leadership style to encrease that growth. The harder question for me is how do adults measure growth with a boy run program compared to adult run. Barry

I had the same kind of experience with camp inspections at one camp in Arkansas. After the camp commissioners finished inspecting all the camp sites, they approached me to have a friendly chat about some basic proceedures for tidier camp site. I politely change the subject to how we were working with our new SPL and that we all understand the proceedures. I pointed out that he is a good kid but the new responsibility was a bit overwhelming and he was trying very hard. I then suggested he approach my SPL and praise him for what went well in the inspection and then provide some suggested techniques for better habits and time managment where he struggled. The head commissioner knew exactly what I was asking and did an excellent job encouraging our SPL. The commissioner was so impressed by our approach that he visited everyday to just chat and see how things were going. There are basic laws to working with youth, one is not all boys are easily motivated. But if your expectation is consistent, your scouts will learn that only those who want the challenges that go with the honor should accept the position. The cream will rise to the top. The difference between Kudu and I is he will select the natural leader and put him in place. I on the other hand guide nature to take its course and encourage the system push the natural leader to the top. I would say that 8 times out of 10, we end up with the same leaders. But in my approach, the boys make the choice, not me. Barry

Something that is missing from the discussion is the scout's desires. I had many scouts, who given the choice, would just soon skip it. The scout who had the COH at his house was absolutley adamante that he didn't want a big deal in front of the troop. The presentation at the house was a compromise for his parents. I do like the Aircraft Carrier idea. I wonder if we have one in Oklahoma. Barry

You know Base, I'm starting to respect your leadership style. Did the camp director speak with your SPL to ask why the troop is late? Camps will struggle with logistics of program and meals when Troops don't follow their schedule. For some people, responsibility is a reaction of accountibility. Barry

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not expecting an answer. But when I hear someone giving hard numbers to define their boy run program, I always wonder what hard numbers they have for percentages and priorities of using the Eigth Methods (Ideals, Outdoors, Patros, Advancement, Adult Assisation, Personal Growth, Leadership, and Uniform) in their boy run program. Barry

I even attended a ceremony done in the Scout's house with his family. They had BBQ after. It is all up to you, but you can Google up some ideas to start. We've have many outdoor ceremonies and they are nice, but keep a back up in mind for rain. It's all fun.

Sounds like a very fun trek, my favorite trek was with our most experienced backpackers. They liked going fast to challenge themselves. We followed another Troop of very experienced backpackers that sang songs and wore Full Class A Uniforms during the whole trek. They even impressed my very seasoned guys. How did you get by the "No Hammocks" policy? Barry

The reason Stosh is because a lot of priorities can change over two year time for both busy adults and teen boys growing into men. I hate planning that far ahead just for that reason. Like resqman, we also learned to require a non refundable down payment to help the participants through their buyers remorse periods. Some treks have more scouts than slots like Boundary Waters, so we want first dibs to the more committed scouts. I also liked teaching scouts a real life responsibility of accountibility. I agree that scouts should be responsible for planning; my last SPL before I retired as SM planned 100% of a week long backpacking trek in Montana. That was always his dream and the crew had a great time. The adults did absolutly nothing except drive and hike. He was special, but all our adventure treks require a scout to initiate the trek and find a crew (adventure patrol) which includes two adults before presenting their plan to the committee. If the committee thinks it a reasonable plan (they always have), then that scout is responsibile for the trip happening. He doesn't have to do all the work, but he does have to delegate responsibilities. And that youth can be any age. We once had a 12 year old learning handicapped scout plan a weekend of visiting amusement parks to ride roller coasters. His dream was to become a Roller Coaster Engineer. His parents were very proud, but that took some doing because of his handicap. We had another 12 year old plan a biking trek. Besides learnring the basic skills of planning, the thing about scouts doing the planning is that young scouts learn by watching the older scouts that they can do whatever they dream. Our troop averages about four adventure treks a yearof various activities from snow skiing to scuba in Mexico. My goal as a scout leader was to create an enviroment where a boy could live out his wildest dreams. I know of no other youth organization that does that like a Scouting Troop. Barry

Running a successful unit is hard enough without going to a crummy camp. If the council camp has a good program we will consider it, but like Kahuma, we enjoy getting out of the Oklahoma 100 degree plus weather and head up into the mountains of New Mexico or Colorado. What can motivate a council more to improve their camp program than loosing business to better competition. Barry

Backpacking chair. I hate sitting on wet muddy ground and the chair also has enough support to lean back.

What I'm saying is you are basing your rant from a vivid imagination. Sure, if it were your troop, the OPs plan would likely be destructive. But you really don't know. If you want the discussion to go that directions, (and I think it is a good discussion) then lead into it without implying or attacking the OP. Barry

Well there is no reaction like an over reaction. You don't know enough to whether this trek will damage a troop program. This troop could have 150 scouts in it with only 6 scouts interested in the trek. Learn the art of asking questions so you can make an informed opinion. Barry

Well maybe, but how do they know if they have never done it before. That is what forums are for. That is why he asked. Boy Run is an aquired taste, very few adults do it right their first time. Barry

I've seen it snow in June. Worse, I've seen thunderstorms with hail, which really lowers the temperature. I'm not sure about the EN tested, but we would be recommending 20 degree bags for a June trek. 65L to 70L is the average pack size our scouts use, some externals might be a little smaller. But crew gear and food take up a lot of room on the Philmont treks. Equipment has improved a lot over the years, but 10 years ago we tried to arrive at Philmont with a maximum weight of 24lbs before crew gear and food. I think it should be less with todays gear. Barry

Two training trips a month for nine months? And why the 14 age limit? Two weekend trips with a couple of one day hikes is plenty for everyone to learn their gear and their physical limitations. Our troop is a adventure troop for all scouts, we only limit scouts by age when required at BSA camp like Philmont. We don't even use the BSA camps in the Northern Tier so we can take youngers scouts. A scout should be limited by skills and physical/mental maturity, not age or rank. We provide twice the training weekends required incase someone can't make a training trip. We do a progressive payment plan withe a deposit at the beginning to get commitment at the beginning. On average we experience about a 40 % drop out rate for various reasons on long range planned trips, so we also sign up alternates who pay and train with the crew. We have never left an alternet home. I do encourage fitness training at home, especially the adults. We have found that fitness training is hard to enforce. But most boys are pretty fit and can do OK if they did ok on training hikes. Adults on the other hand need to do some fitness training. I would also suggest you plan the first day to be a 5 mile trip, it allows the body to adapt to the gear. I think 5 days is a perfect for a trip like this. If you are thing 50 mile award, add a couple longer days. Be careful not to take the fun out of it.

I want the scouts to have an experience that motivates them to learn. I would not interrupt, but I might ask him later about the situation to hear what he learned. There are many answers depending on the history of the two scouts. I would also ask the SM his opinion. Barry

When someone jumps up and says let their sons pick the troop, I like to tell about the crossover ceremony where I asked the Webelos why they chose to join this particular troop. They said it had the best game of the troops they visited. None of them were in scouts a year later. Sadly the forum isn't what it used to be because this question always brought out some good advise for parents needing reasonable answers. Many posters now seem more expressive of personal prejudice like 300 ft, and no wood badge adults instead of looking at who runs meetings, asking the SM his goals for the scouts and what they think is boy run. While many on this forum kind of know what 300 seperation rule really represents, nobody outside the forum does and they will think of you a clueless geek for asking. Truth is many here on the forum these days are a bit extreme in their opinions, so they don't help much in real life situations. KDD, may I suggest learning from forum contributors who give more grounded advise that is closer to your local programs like MattR and Eagle92. Scouters in the real world don't know what 300 ft means and it's ok to work as a team with your son to help him find a good troop. Let your son hang with a patrol For a meeting while you pepper the SM with questions of program. Then compare notes and see where that goes. I remember one mom who brought her son four times before choosing our troop. It took her that long to see why our program worked for her son. So there is no huge hurry. Barry

What I meant was tune up hikes are the place to learn trail etiquette and each members physical abilities. You should have been torward the front of the crew on the first day because they already knew you were a slower hiker.

I agree with everything you say because I've experienced it. If we provide adventure, they will come. But National has the problem of keeping a product interesting and that has become more challenging. Nobody saw it then, but bringing women into the program changed the general image of boy scouting for the majority of adult volunteers joining the program. I think close to 70 percent of volunteers today didn't have a scouting experience as a youth. That is a big problem because it is fair to say that likely the majority of adult volunteers never camped more that 2 days in their life before they joined the BSA. The new Wood Badge program introduced in 2000 is direct result of National trying to deal with that kind of adult leader. To get to the program many here keep harping that would bring back more scouts, National ironically would have to consider loosing at least 50% of membership. That is certainly a huge guess on my part, but I think reasonable considering the number of inexperienced scouters that enter the program. I am considered a Boy Run extremist in my council and was always preaching boy run to units. But it wasn't until I was the District Membership Chairman that I humbly learned that even boys in adult run programs had fun and grew a lot in the Fitness, Citizenship and Character as a result of their troop experience. So the question is do we want to provide a top shelf program to less than 50% of boys served today, or is what we provide today enough? I don't have the answer, I was a boy run extremist. I ran a 300 feet apart style program and we where very active outdoors. But I do respect the situation. Barry

This is what tune-up hikes are for. Barry

We averaged 10 per patrol and 7 per patrol at scouting activities. It wasn't a problem in our troop, it was part of the program. The expectation on our scouts to their patrol is loyalty, not attendence. The expectations on the PLC attendence are high for obvious reasons, but we found the scouts planning their leadership ambition around their schedule. Football players and band members didn't take on a high leadersip positions until Spring. One of my best SPLs planned his schedule around his swimming schedule. Barry

Through the years I learned that scouts are surprisingly resilient and can handle most physical stress really well, so I got to where I didn't worry much about them, even with crappy equipment. Adults on the other hand don't bounce back well from physical stress and need to be in shape before the trek if they want to enjoy it. My son was also a small scout and did a lot of backpacking at around 95 lbs. He carried about the same weight as the other scouts and never once complained. I am not recommending that, I didn't know because I wasn't on most of his treks. But the one 10 day trek we did together, the sole of his boot came completely off the leather the second day on the trail, so he used duct tape for about 70 miles of the trip and never complained. As I said, I just quit worrying about boys physically. Barry