Eagledad

It is not my intention to point at inner city black familles, but this article got me thinking about my son who is a high school teacher in a high risk inner city school. Only 80% of his students are hispanic. He says the Hispanics also have manhood rituals that push them into starting fights that prove their worth. Barry

Here is a piece from Forbes that underlines the noble vision of Scouting and values intended to influence in our youth.http://www.forbes.com/sites/billfrezza/2013/11/26/the-knockout-game-goes-viral-the-hunger-games-its-not/ “Rather, they appear to be manhood rituals designed to increase the esteem of attackers amongst their peers. Both the hoodlums involved and their laughing companions seem to accord no more moral significance to these violent attacks than they would to pulling the wings off flies.â€Â

Troop size is usually a result of the Scoutmaster's agenda and managing skills. We had a troop of 200 scouts a few years ago with a SM who was a retired Navy sea captain. He was one of those strong Type A people that knew how to work with large numbers. If a Troop has a large membership surge and the SM can't handle the numbers, it will fall back to managable numbers in less than three years. I think somewhere 25 is the average troop size nationally. That is more a refection on the SMs' skills than their desires. Not that many adults can manage large groups. Barry

Bando paints a pretty typical scenario. Our research and experience found that only 2 out of 10 splits have the success they originally planned. What typically happens is the new troop fades into a much smaller troop while the original troop becomes big again. The reason for this is the adults. The adults of the successful troop stay with that troop while the lesser performing adults move to the new program. There is also the dynamics issues between the family who split as well. We also found that it is better for the troops to find completely different sponsors to prevent the drama that Bando talks about. My advice to units considering this idea (including ours at one time) is don’t do it because the odds of success are against you. Barry

Yes, I had a similar story as well. But sometimes you would be surprised what boys acting likes scouts will get as well. Our troop of about 60 scouts and adults stopped at a Pizza Hut in a small town in the panhandle of Texas. I believe it was Dumas. We were on our way home to Oklahoma City coming from a week long summer camp in Colorado. We typically wear our Class A uniforms during travel, but our troop stopped and did a half day rafting trip after we left in camp that morning. We didn’t bother to change in our uniforms because, well frankly we were tired, smelly, and nasty from the rafting. We just wanted to get home. Anyways, four hours later in Texas we stopped at the Pizza Hut for dinner. The adults taking a break from driving (and the boys) came in the restaurant a couple minutes after them. The PLC had already found tables and picked one for the adults separated from the scouts. We sat down and ordered a few pizzas and a couple pitchers of sodas. When the manager brought out the first pitchers, he said half the pizza and all the drinks were on Pizza Hut. At this point the adults did not know that anyone knew we were scouts. We certainly didn’t look (or smell) like it, so we were baffled by the generosity. The manager explained that the boys were so orderly and considerate of the other people in the restaurant when they came in, we just knew they had to be boy scouts. So we asked and they told us they were a troop from Oklahoma City. We are impressed and want to acknowledge it by helping out with your bill. When folks talk about bad examples of scouts in public, I always think back on the evening. Barry

There was an understanding with the GSUSA, I just don't know where it stands now. I am quite confident that the BSA has no desire to jump into anymore snake pits for awhile. Barry

You're basing national numbers from what? LOL! It will take 5 years to see the real effects of this years decisions.

I was told in the early 90s that the BSA had an agreement with the GSUSA to not recruit girls into Cubs or Troops or hell would come down on the organization. Now I admit that the American womens rights organizations don't have the power they had then (Clinton), but given the beating they took this year from political correctness, the BSA would be stupid to open that gate. Barry

After working with thousands of youth over my lifetime, I'm convinced the BSA is a bit ahead of the rest of the world. And it isn't likely to change anytime soon either because taking members from the GSUSA in America would be another political hornets nest. The GSUSA is very much supported by womens rights organizations.

It is believed that the BSA and GSUSA have had an unwritten agreement for many years to leave things as they are. Barry

I was talking to a friend some years ago who was telling me about a business conference he attended some years earlier. He said there were several hundred people in attendance with most of them talking while waiting for the first speaker. The first speaker approached the podium and was a bit perplexed to how he was going to get everyone’s attention. After a few moments of pause, he raised the scout sign. Immediately a few signs rose up with more and more gradually following eventually bringing the room to quiet calm. My friend said it was obvious the speaker’s sign was more reactionary than planned and he was as surprised by the immediate response as was the rest of the room. He said there were as many women in the room as men, but surprisingly to everyone, the speaker’s action worked. I agree with Stosh that the Scout Sign gets over used and abused, but we shouldn’t ignore the power that it provides as a tool. When the sign is raised, it simply says “Respect for the floor Pleaseâ€Â. The problem comes when it is used as a tool for punishment instead of calling for respect. I see it over and over, the person of authority holding the sign until well beyond the given respect until the blood has completely left everyone’s arms. At the point, the person holding the sign is really saying “When I say shut up, I mean SHUT UPâ€Â. I respect Stosh for teaching his scouts not to use the sign for the purpose of bringing respect to the floor, but using the sign for that purpose is universally accepted with all Boy Scouts in North America, maybe even universally. To say that it shouldn’t be learned and used for the purpose would be like saying we should never drink tap water. Instead what scouters should do is as stosh suggest, teach how to use the sign for the intended use of respect, not as a tool to punish. If a scout cannot bring respect to the floor within a reasonable time with the sign, there are bigger problems that need attention. And those bigger problems are typical with younger scouts. Like anything with ignorance, proper behavior has to be taught and developed. That is what scouting is all about. Teach the skills of the Oath and Law and how to apply them in all the scouts actions. This is a good subject in how to develop boys totally ignorant of a boy run structure. The question is a little difficult in that the OP suggest getting from A to Z in just a few weeks. I know that isn’t what was meant, but without experience, the OP didn’t know how to ask. The real objective for this age group isn’t teaching Patrol Leading, but self confidence and independence. And while the overall big goal is good, we have to remember that big goals generally require many small steps. As I said before, start with just a few activities and work from there. Don’t expect perfection, just a little growth. When the scouts seem to have the confidence of that independence, raise the bar a little and keep them challenged. Once they seem to get more confidence, add more structure. Anytime the scouts aren’t having fun, change the structure a little. It works well for the Webelos age group. Confidence and Independence is all boys need at this age and experience. With that, they will do fine in most any troop program. Barry

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No big thing really, you don't need to boy run the whole meeting, just opening and closing. Give them a short list of what needs to be said: Scouts attention! Color guard attention! Color guard present colors! CG PostColors! Scouts oath! Scout Law! Prayer! CG dismissed! .., then you take over the meeting. Don't correct anything at first, these are confidence building exercises. Let them use cheat sheets. Once they start to show some confidence, add a little more. They will catch on faster than you think. If they have never seen opening and closings, check out You Tube. Most are basically the same. But keep yours very basic. It will be fun. Barry

Hmm, I have not had those issues. Different styles I guess. Thanks. Barry

What issues have you had Stosh?

I eventually addressed all my SPLs as "Senior" for the same reason. In fact address all SPLs as Senior because they seem to like it. I guess it rings as much authority as Scoutmaster.

They invested a lot of time and energy reaching the bar of Eagle, they just want to finish the journey.

Well I don't have details of the trips of different troops because I had 17 Webelos that ended up scattered in troops all over the district. I was invited to their Eagle COHs where they showed off pictures of their scouting adventures. I was told by one SM that the scuba trip in Mexico through a local outfitter was cheaper than the trips to Boundary Waters. I guess its all in who you know. Barry

Thnking about this, I remember the 140, or so, scouts in the pack when I was asked to be CM didn't have a uniform policy. The way we tackled that problem was through the Webelos by encouraging them to wear full uniforms at all the activities. That wasn't hard to do either because we also give them the same camo booney hats the military soldiers wore. The hats were great because they were very durable for scouting activities, and they looked very cool compared to the BSA baseball caps. My 30 and 27 year old sons still have theirs and most of the scouts wore theirs through Boy Scouts as well. I remember looking at a lot of pictures of scouts at their Eagle COH wearing those booney hats everywhere from the Canadian Boundary Waters to scuba diving in Mexico. Somehow it became a Pack policy that only the Webelos had the honor of wearing the booney hat, so they wore their uniforms with a lot pride, and the younger ages couldn't wait to be Webelos. Because the Webelos looked cool, we never had problems with all the scouts dressing in uniform, even while traveling. Barry

Our scouts follow the scout Handbook on uniforming, but we do have a unit rule that scouts must wear the full uniform while traveling. We started doing this when we found that store clerks at the many gas stops and convienience stores we stop during our trips kind of panic when a couple dozen boys go running through the store. The uniform identifies them to the adults in uniform and surprisingly calms them. I remember a truck driver at one gas stop in Clayton New Mexico personally apologized to every scout because she was wearing a sexually derogatory t-shirt. She was ashamed and said she would never do that in public again. Folks respect the Boy Scout uniform more than we can understand I guess. Barry

This reminds me of a back packing trip we did in New Mexico; we decided to go to the Santa Fe Arts Festival the day before we got on the trail and as we were driving in the parking lot, the Scouts saw several young ladies about their age. So they decided to remove their scout shirts while we adults left ours on. The scouts took off on their own, but they were close enough in the crowd to watch venders giving free food to those of us in uniform. We laughed later joking with the boys that they didn't even get the girl. Barry

TB, you ran into the interpretation differences with the "training" part of "Train-them, Trust-them and let-them-go". There are certainly a lot of different opinions with the group here. I'm not sure you can find the right answer on this forum because the "trust" part with the adults changes with experience. Many here feel a parent asking a lot of questions about a troop program edges into helicpoter parenting, others think it's just responsible parenting. It's important to understand that the BSA looses more boys from the program at this time of scouting than any other age group because boys coming from the Cub ages have very little experience with independence and suddenly find themselves drowning with independence in the troop program. It is terrifying for them to say the least. There is a line between building confidence to step forward into the unknown, and fear of the unknown. Training is that difference. I think the troop you visited hasn't yet matured to understanding the difference. You as a responsible parent that needs to feel comfortable about the choice of troop you pick. Ask a few questions. What is your ultimate goal for my son? Is this troop boy run and what does that mean? Do you have a new scout program? Personally, I think the overall quality of a troop is reflective in the quality of the older scouts program. So ask about the older scout program. How many scouts 14 and older. And ask to observe the older scouts in action. They should be leading the younger ones. However, like humans, each troop has it's own unique personality. You need to learn enough to understand the personality. Visit the good troops at least twice in different scenarios like camping and meetings. Maybe even three times. Always talk to the SPL and ask him what he thinks will happen to your son if he joins. Aways an interesting discussion. I wish you luck, we were so frustrated by our choices that we started our own troop. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I also wouldn't do it any other way if I had the choice to do it over again. Scouitng is hard, but it is very rewarding. Barry

“Here's my question...I have had two parents ask me why he is getting credit for all the activities when it is obvious he does not listen or participate. I cant say I disagree with them.†I can’t really advice to the question because your pack has a policy that answers the it for the other parents. However, I think you seek the wisdom from those of us who didn’t have that policy, and I understand. Working with mentally challenged scouts is always challenging because each one of them is different. A lot different. The Do Your Best approach is the best and really most compassionate approach to holding these scouts accountable. But that still isn’t the easy answer. We found that we had to get these boys parents closely involved so they could advise and direct us in how to work with their son. And when the parents didn’t get involved for whatever reason, then I still called a meeting to just explain my thinking of how I would counsel with their son. And they usually were very accepting. A lot of times, the parents don’t know how to deal with some of their sons behavior, so it can be new territory for all. I’ve been retired as a SM long enough now that most of those boys are young adults and I can certainly say that the ones I spoken with did have a positive scouting experience. If you approach these young men with an open and compassionate heart, usually good things will happen. Working with these scouts is hard, tiring, and challenge to the patience. But rewarding in the end. I have a lot of good success stories with our mentally and physically challenged scouts, but I have a different story with our 17 year old life scout who was on his way to Eagle. His parents were very supportive and active with our troop. In fact, dad is an Eagle and Silver Beaver. But the scout had one incident where he pulled a knife on another scout. At the end of a series of conferences and counseling sessions with the scout and his dad observing, the scout finally told his dad and I that he didn’t feel that pulling the knife was unscout like behavior. I remember his dad turning to me with a tear in his eye and telling me that he was going home to tell mom that their son was not going to be an Eagle. As I read these posts and reflect back on my experiences with all our challenging scouts, I realize as the emotion of those moments faded and given me a clearer understanding of the pain and suffering of the parents. The folks here have some good advice of how to work with these young men, but I’ll also add that as you work with their son, the parents have a desperate hope from you. And while I feel that hope is unfairly placed, doing your best can is the noble cause God has placed in your hands. I couldn’t have said it ten years ago because they were still boys, but after meeting these young men now as adults living adult lives, I think we did OK. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I can't think of any reason why these scouts can't do the task without an adult.

So why when did the scout start missing meetings. Why?