Eagledad

And what if the scouts don't chose the scout as their patrol leader? The SM appoints all the patrol leaders? I know Badon Powell's scouts did that, but I don't think Hillcourt did. Really doesn't matter, apothecus has play by today's design. While Kudu and I agree philosophically on the big picture of scouting, we don't agree in changing the design. Whether one agrees with the current BSA program or not, the new SM still functions in the modern day BSA. To suggest going his own way and making it up as he goes along risk total chaos and eventual complete failure. Scouts pick their leaders, not the adults. If the scoutmaster must assign a stranger to lead the rest of the scouts, then pick a position that makes sense to the current program. Barry

You didn't say the age of the other scouts, but if they are young (13 and under) I think JASM is the appropriate position because he really is more of an adult than older scout. I also think a 16 year old scout with his experience needs to be used as an adult to be challenged to grow. You and this scout could work as an equal team to learn the ropes of scout mastering. But don't assume that both of you will grow equally with the program. I have been in a similar situation and the clear difference between you and this scout is your experience as an adult in real life situations, and experience as a responsible parent. Trust me this young man has much to gain from your maturity. I would approach him as his mentor to grow as an adult, and a team member of developing you new troop. Remember, your are still his scoutmaster, but strength in your humility will help both him and the program mature to their full potential. I wish you luck in your new adventure. It will change your life and last you forever. Barry

There are a lot of things in BDs post that would concern me about the big picture of his program if I stayed within the bounds of Barry's world, but without seeing his in person, it would all just be conjecture. I must admit the discussion of BD having to turn away recruits seems in conflict with the discussion of the SPL who doesn't want to participate in the program. Its better for me to just consider the SPLs behavior to be the real issue and not a symptom of bigger program issues. I do admit that letting the scouts off the hook for discarding a campfire brings up all kinds of red flags for me. But again I've done this long enough to know walking in others shoes lights things up a lot. I'm a very different person than BD, so it's appropriate that I would run a program different to achieve the same results. Barry

Well whatever reason the PLC came up with, there does appear to be some defiance. It's one thing to change the program in the middle of the agenda, it's something different to just ignore it. I personally would have a sitdown with the whole PLC and asked what was going on. Why and how does this behavior fit in the Scout Oath and Law. Personally I have no problem with program changes, we do it all the time. But usually the SPL comes to the SM to discuss the situation or even just brief the adults on what they have decided to do. The PLC is responsible for the program and when they don't take on that expecation, folks start to get concerned. Personally it sounds like a maturity issue and the SPL hasn't felt the consequences of not acting like a leader. As for the adults part, well you are responsible for the three aims. Did the PLC provide? Just because a troop is boy run doesn't mean there isn't consequences to actions, or inaction. The thing here is to find out why the PLC behaved the way they did and then how to change this behavior at their maturity in the context of the scout law. That is my take of the top of my head. I would be disapointed in the scouts and I would let them know that. Barry

Interesting! So what was the afternoon program? Barry

Been there and done that. After trying several different approaches with these types of boys, we found what worked the best is require a parent to accompany their son during all the activities. Of course neither the parent or scout will cooperate, but it starts the ball rolling of either the scout changing his behavior (not likely, but sometimes), or quitting the troop. These scouts are usually two steps a head of troop adults and some enjoy the game. So change the rules, require the parent to attend the activities and the problem will fix itself inside a couple of meetings. I learned through the years that we troop adults tend try and solve these kinds of problems without the parents. And much of the time we do. But there are some boys bent on the darker side of behavior and small problems turn into big problems before we know it. I've watch parents threaten litigation because they were surprised how much they weren't told about there son behavior. Truth is they have most leverage and we should work as a team even on small matters. Still, even though you are bringing in these parents late in the game, stick to your guns, either they attend the meeting with their son, or don't bring him. You have had enough, let them figure it out now. I can think of three scouts like your scout over the hundreds of scouts that passed through our program. One of the three changed his behavior and stayed in the program, even getting his Eagle a few years later. Barry

This stuff was created long before political correctness, politics or the cultural war. Don't make it more than it is, which is a road map of the BSA. A Vision statement is intended as the he main single objective of the company, organization or program. Vision Statements are usually a short easy to remember idealistic goal. They purposely idealistic and appear impossible so that they aren't easily met and more importantly so that it doesn't change over time. I remember reading somewhere that Baden Powell's Vision Statement for Scouting was world peace. A Mission statement while still vague of the details for reaching the vision usually ties the theme of the program to the vision. The Aims are not the "how" of get to the vision, but instead more of where by setting the boundaries or arena of the vision program. The methods are the how. The Practice of the scout law is the focus in using the methods. The scout oath is the connection to the aims to the mission. If all is like it's laid out, you see a trend toward the Vision. There is a book out that said the majority of the top Fortune 500 companies usually hire employees that believe in their company vision and mission statements. I have found that the adults of the more successful "boy run" troops understand and try to guide their program under the Vision, Mission, Aims and Methods guidelines. It's a pretty clear path and keeps the focus simple when questions pop up.

Qwazse explains it pretty well. Push adventure and everything else will follow to fit each scouts personality. It's important that we adults understand that being a good adult scout leader takes practice. I lean torward pushing hard enough to find the boundaries and then pulling back a little. But we need to recognize the boundaries of each scout. Push adventure, which is first class skills in this case and see how the advancement falls out. Let me add that I lost one of the best scouts I ever knew by pushing advancement instead of adventure. It's a fine line. Learn to recognize that line and both you and the scouts will have a lot more fun. Barry

One of the complaints about our B&Gs is that they were so long. With Webelos crossovers, rank presentations for all ages along with intertainment, music and games, it was impossible to stay under 2 hours. We then switched to recognizing all the ranks the month they were earned and doing Webelos Crossover at a Pack meeting. Yes, we had the Pack meeting and B&G the same month. We do crossovers for all the other ages at our annual May campfire. This change the B & G completely making it A LOT easier to plan and a lot more fun to attend. We still give awards, but not near as many. Moving the Web Crossover to a Pack meeting made that ceremony better and more meaningful for everyone. The B&Gs are now an hour long of fun and food. I think that is what it was originally intended to be. Barry

Social social behavior used to be shaped by family and community. But youth today have social media and puts them at a disadvantage because what the family and community may consider unacceptable is perfectly acceptable in their small digital world. I had a discussion with a 35 year old work colleague who surprised me when he said that anything said on the social media is private and protected in the courts. This guy has a PHD and used to work for NASA. I like the suggestion of speaking specifically about Facebook and pointing out how the scout works in that world. I would not make a big deal of it, but instead present the suggestions as a big brother or sister saving the scout from an embarrassing moment in the future. Good luck. Barry

yes, there (back in the 90s I think) is some data that shows scouts with involved parents are more likely to stick with the program longer. Seems like it also pointed out that Eagle Scouts typically had active parents in the program. Barry

cambridge's number start at 1997. I believe the liberal policy changes occurred a few years before, so we aren't seeing the big change. It Seems like the membership was around 900,000 in 1992, but that was a while ago. Anyone watching at the time would agree that Canada's program losses are 100% attributed to liberalism. Moose, I have NO desire to watch the BSA fall in anyway. I am by far one of the BSA's biggest cheerleaders, but I am a pragmatic person and if you read all my text you will see that I write without based emotion. I many time write information that I don't like, but is keeps the discussion honest. Some folks just don't like facts that put their stand in a bad light. But if we are to learn the truth, we need to keep the discussion fair and without bias. I agree that most folks on this forum struggle with that. But don't assume anything about me just because you don't like what I write. Barry

>>Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.<< I don't understand, what changes to values? Vision, Mission Statement, Oath and Law have not changed. . Barry

I understand you frustration Fred, but I don't agree with your solution becaue it assumes that all adults are equal and all troop programs are good quality units. My District and Council experience is that about 50% of the troops are good quality while the rest are either in transition or just plan bad programs. Your solution would force 50% of the packs to join low quality programs. Also, while we each have our ideal troop programs, families have different goals for their sons and one troop size doesn't fit all. Likely the BSA would loose more scouts with that program. However, I do agree with you that troops creating activities just to recruit new scouts is a distraction to the intended troop program. As far as I could tell at the time, our troop out of 19 was the only one that didn't plan anything special for visitors. Instead we told Webelos leaders that they could visit our program anytime they liked. We didn't mind surprise visits to Troop meetings, but did ask a weeks advance notice for campouts so that the PLC had time to make accommodations for the extra visiters. We also found that camping overnight was a bit much for Webelos families and just visiting the troop for a day through campfire was plenty for them to see us in action. Their suggestion not ours. While I was on the District committee, I was encourging Troops to not plan special events for recruiting, but Webelos recruiting weekends are a major planned annual event for several troops and they weren't about to change. Barry

Also recently from the UK and discussed on this forum: “A girl guide group faces being thrown out of the national association after refusing to force members to drop God from the oath.†The boys may not be too far behind. Seems god is getting in the way of good scouting. Barry

Moose, you keep trying to debate this at a personal level. We are talking about the conceptual design of the whole organization. Values based from what Pack18Alex calls devine nature is not theory, it's reality by design. Your need to debate the reality shows that either you don't understand the intent, or that you don't agree with it in the desgin and would rather the BSA change it's values away from a devine scource and move toward a youth activities theme program like the YMCA and little league baseball. Your debate is not whether the BSA's values are centered from a Devine Nature, because it is. Your argument should be to take god out of the oath and law so that there are no adult membership restrictions. Barry

>> Pack18Alex: Scouting, with its Scout Law to be taught to minors, requires the existence of black and white morality. It doesn't require any one specific black and white morality, it does require one. Without granting the power to the supernatural to define morality, everything becomes, "it depends." So while BSA is defacto Protestant while being officially non-sectarian, it doesn't reply on Protestant morality so much as divine morality, pure truth, pure black and white.<< Thanks Alex. That is exactly what I was trying to say, but you stated it more clearly. Barry

We had a scouter similar to your adult and we were always having discussions about his style of leadership. He didn't care for mine, but I was the SM. He isn't going to change, so keep him balanced or in check during activities with other adults. Lesson learned is "never" allow him to be the adult in charge at an activity. Barry

Nice post EmberMike. For a little balance, the bible does not justify or condone slavery, it only teaches godly behavior for people in that situation. It does not contradict any of Jesus other teachings, instead it supports them, I don't understand your personal stand of homosexuality, but maybe you don't have a good biblical understanding of sin or how Christians should behave around sinners. Read the bible and you might be surprised that you aren't so liberal. Barry

I don't think you give yourself enough credit Moose, you can hardly say that your post are kind to conservatives. It is clear that you think yourself better, instead of different. I also get a kick out of liberals not being angry at this concervative Pope. Must be his delivery because his grounded principles are the same. But in the premise of your post, if religion were taken out of the oath and law, then what would anchor the traits of the law to have any continuity to the vision of making moral decision makers? How could an organization maintain integrity if the values are based on the ground level of the leader who looks no farther than teaching boys the skills that will get them to the next rank? Like any great movement, the foundation of its vision has to come from something greating than man reacting to emotions of the moment, otherwise it follows changes in the wind. As soon as the population looses the respect of the scouting's values, it looses its mystic to something better than just a club that goes camping. Repeating the oath, law, even the Pledge of Allegiance will fade away as old time rituals that hold little meaning. Go visit the YMCA if you doubt me. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it won't be a values program when it does. By they way, I've heard this is exaclty what happened to the Canadian Scouts. Barry

Good post skeptc. Less than 25% of adults today had a BSA youth scouting experience. It is challenging to offer a program for youth when the adult leaders only source of direction comes from adult training. Public disrespect isn't going to change, so the scouting program will have to change to survive. Likely the experienced adults will not approve of those changes because they will pull away from traditional outdoor program. BArry

>> An unchangable standard, but it doesn't matter which of various unchangable standards are used. Or even if they're unchangable (as the BSA has never had such a requirement).<< Ah, I can understand why an atheist would struggle with that. Christians, Muslims, and Hebrews all “do their duty to God†to the full extent of their religion. Barry

>>I know that there are other factors to both Countries.. But, Eagledad would like to believe Canada is solely due to gays, and ignore England because it doesn't fit his argument<< I was actively corresponding with several Canadian Scout leaders back when the program changed because I liked some of their program design ideas that helped me with my program. I remember clearly when those scouters announced they were dropping out because of the policy change. It wasn’t just admitting gays, it included admitting atheist. Canada at the time had either the first or second largest Boy Scout program in the world at the time. It lost somewhere between 60 and 70 percent over the next 10 years or so before it leveled off. Of course it also sold A LOT property and assets to deal with the problems. But let’s not ignore programs even closer to home. I don’t know the numbers but the Campfire Kids had a big membership loss that was directly associated to accepting gay leaders and they have not recovered to that level yet. I know this pretty well because a close friend’s wife was at the national level of the organization. They’re biggest issue was the loss of alumni contributions which was huge. Then there is the Girls Scouts, they took a big hit as well when they allowed gays, but they are so deep in reacting to political activism, it’s hard to understand what exactly took them down. I’m confident that it’s 100% liberal. As for the BSA, I agree with stosh that it will take a couple years to see the real effect of the policy change. Back when I was accumulating national membership data for Webelos and Troop memberships, I was frustrated because I had to monitor numbers for 18 months minimum to follow one scout. And that doesn’t mean he was active either. National doesn’t have a system to know their exact membership at any one time. It can never know how many active members it has because it can takes at least a year to filter out scouts who joined but was never active. In my opinion, scouting can’t survive liberalism because the program is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God. Doesn't matter which, god, but god is the one unchangable standard the Oath and Law are held grounded. Liberalism by its nature defines values at a more institutional level which dramatically limits individualism and encourages local values that change with change in local leadership. The program has to move away from a fixed set of morals to induce its own set of values, or lack thereof. The BSA will have change to a godless camping club to survive, much like the Young Men’s Christian Association (YMCA). But even at that, it will never have the numbers of last year. That’s not theory, it’s history. Barry

We don't watch the boys during their activities. We might go watch just for our own entertainment or participate for enjoyment like on biking and rappelling activities, but not to monitor or babysit. Young men won't act like young men until they are given the room, independence and responsibilities of men. That being said, maturity and experience have to be considered for the activity. I think your adult just doesn't have enough experience with the boy run philosophy. I've said before that I think a SM needs to spend 50% of his efforts with guiding and teaching adults the program so that they understand and buy in to it. Barry

I don't remember the exact numbers, but the Canadian Scouts is a fraction of what it was in 2002. That is the result of liberalism. Canada used to be considered the best scouting program in the world. They barley resemble that program now. The best that can be said is they finally hit bottom. They are still struggling to keep their heads above water. As for the BSA, the numbers will never be as good as 2013. That is a direct result of liberalism. Especially if they invite gay adults.