Eagledad

No figuring it out sadly, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I can separate paragraphs, most times everything runs together. Cut and Paste is the same way.

Wow, woohoo! one finally came through.

The last few post have got off track to the reality of the BSA scout program. Kudu is not a fan of the BSA, so he uses these discussions to bash the BSA and lace it with a little wisdom of experience. You have to really dig for it, but he does have some good stuff hidden in there. OHTERS here use him to piggy back their there own style of BSA bashing. One of Kudu's points that I do agree, but is out of place in this discussion is don't let the patrol method set the program back. What he was saying is Don't risk an election of 10 years olds when the obvious leader is the 16 year old. But since there was no discussion of an election, Kudu's example was out of context and only confused the discussion. And it is true the Stosh and Kudu have admitted many times that they don't care for what stosh calls Top Down Management system of the BSA program. Problem stosh is that it's not a hierarchy of management OR Leadership, it is hierarchy of responsibility. Very different and works very well for a "Boy Run" type program because it places the appropriate amount of responsibility with a scouts experience and maturity. And it gives the SM (good guy) a lot of freedom to add or reduce responsibility to insure the scout is challenged without being overwhelmed. I think it is important for everyone to understand that Kudu prefers the Badon Powell patrol system where the SM hand picks the leaders. That is not the BSA program, so it becomes and apples and oranges in these discussions. What I keep reminding both stosh and Kudu is they can be as idealistic as they want, but normal down to earth adults still have to run the program and if the program isn't intuitive and simplistic for the average person, it goes off in the gutter. There has to be a system that the average adult can run without loosing control. I happen to think the BSA has given us exaclty that. I have the experience to back that up. Getting back to "this" discussion and the simple answer of what I was trying to explain to stosh is that the title for this 16 scout doesn't matter, the program is so narrowly defined at this point that the SM's and scout's roles and responsibilities will be the same. There isn't enough maturity in the program to give them room and flexibility to go very many directions. I suggested JASM because it is a position in the this BSA program that the SM can appoint. But it doesn't matter if the troop calls him Chief of the Watch, he will still do the same job. I do appreciate stoshes and Kudus idealistic concepts to the boy growth of scouting because they similar to mine, but as much as they may hate it, THIS IS THE BSA and they are NOT going to change it. It is far better to work within the system we all have to use to accomplish the same performance. I know it is possible because I see great performing troops all the time. Sorry for the long post. Barry

Not sure what poll numbers have to do with anything, but I think we agree. By the way, I know several people who home school so that they don't expose their kids to different moral lifestyle until the kids are at a mature age. Still, I think it's hypocritical for anyone who doesn't have the same belief to suggest any other motivation of a different faith. At the very least it's self rightous because who is anyone to make such a comment (judge?) simply because that person doesn't follow the CO's religious leader. The best one can say is that they don't understand the other persons choice. I am not a Catholic.

You are wandering around again Moose, you implied the decision to decline membership was political because the church leader was OK with it.

You are just being argumentative. COs didn't set the condition of homosexualtiy because it wasn't an issue back then. Plan and simple. If you read on google that a friend of a friend's son of an aunt was asked to leave, it was because homosexuality was not acceptable by community standards. Not some high and mighty church. You imply that homosexuality was normal back in the 60s and the conservative forced gays to go in hiding by the 90s. Surely you don't really believe that. Are you doing this just so you can say it's different today? OK, let me help keep the discussion pragmatic and move on; it's different today.

Jesus said the same about all sinners Sentinal, but that doesn't require believers to spend all their time with them. Its a bit hypocritical of those here who admit don't believe the bible is the living word of God to suggest that those who do follow the bible are just acting from politics.

I don't understand what you just said, so I'm sure I didn't say anything about it. The 20s, 30s, 40s, all the way through the 80s is irrelevant to this discussion because homosexuality was culturally taboo. Why would a CO have that as a condition for the BSA?

No, the churches were COs for many many years. The recent membership change was the reason behind their decision.

I don't agree. The BSA moved away from these concervatives, not the other way around. Church COs bailed on the BSA after the changes, not before have forced the units to move. Organizations have to stand for something. I know a lot of scouters who just want more freedom to run their program like traditional scouting program, much like Kudo. I don't think TL fits that type of program, but we will see. I heard of a few people who were talking about organizing scout units specifically for gay scouts as kind of a sanctuary. That's not pluralism, that is political activism. And for that reason, I don't think they will get enough interest. Barry

Good point Mike, we will have to see how it goes. What I think will slow their growth is TLs strict use of using religious institutions for COs. Barry

I see a lot of opinions of why folks are leaving the BSA for Trail Life and likely they are all correct depending on the unit. The local Trail Life near me organized as a result of the BSA membership decision. There was no thought of changing before. I know of a couple of Texas units considering Trail Life because the church has asked the BSA units to leave. I know of another boy run unit looking into Trail Life to get more freedom in there program. I don't think there is one main reason. But if Trail Life can get their feet under them, they might make a go of it. I don't feel Trail Life will hurt the BSA program. But it might keep them from going more liberal with membership like allowing atheist. Barry

Because of how I'm used to they we'd do things, what does the Key 3 think? Barry

I enjoy these converstations because it gets into the meat of the program. The editor on my side is making it impossible. Sorry. Barry

I give up. LOL

Stupid editor. I will try again.>>This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done.

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There is no bad guys here Fred, I think its reasonable to estimate that 75% packs do it and mainly because it's tradition. The leaders before did it, no reason to change that tradition as far as they can tell. At least that's the case in our area. Packs also use the Blue & Gold as yearly advancement deadlines for all the age groups. I don't care for that either, but just about all Packs do that. Again, tradition, not selfserving adults. As blw2 points out, it's very hard to change tradition even when its in everyones best interest. Barry

My bad, that comment was meant for jpstodwftexas.

All your dens crossover early February? What do they do the rest of the year? Barry

Our B&G is very much like Packs and they are a lot of fun and last at the most 1 hour 30 minutes. And actually you could do a crossover if you want, but make is short and sweet. Your problem is you combined the AOL with the crossover. AOLs are typically longer. Try this idea to get your pack to gradually change. Do an AOL presentation at the meeting before the B&G. Make it a really good one so it is fun for everyone. There are plenty of us with good ideas to make it special and fun for the whole pack. Once that is out of the way, you could do a much much shorter crossover at the B&G. To insure a quicker ceremony, have someone of honor outside of the pack MC it. Someone outside of the pack has less invested and will keep the speeches short. Could even be the OA, but help that person with a five minute presentation speech and then the crossover. By the way, our 2nd year Webelos parents traditionally plan the B&G as well. That won't change. If anyone balks about the idea, sell them on the idea the Webelos IIs will get two ceremonies out of the deal instead of one. You like that idea because the younger scouts will have something special to look forward to. It works for us. Barry

Hi all Fun discussion. I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't posted that the uniform isn't required or needed for the aims. Like stosh, I come from the era of always wearing the necker because of many uses. In fact, I don't have the most recent Scout Handbook nearby, can someone tell me if the Handbook requires the necker for full uniform, and is it demonstrated in the first-aid skills section? One thing different about the neckers today from the one I wore as a youth (still have it) they are much smaller today. I bought the necker that comes from Gilwell for WB and it is closer to the size of my youth necker. As a youth, I didn't worry about the collar, I had the shirt that didn't have a collar. It is much more comfortable on hot Oklahoma summer days. I don't think the BSA used them long. Barry

Surely you aren't the only one in the district who understands the troops problems. I was the first person responsible for failing units when I was the District Membership Chair. I would pull in the Key 3 as well as any trusted experienced leaders and discuss a plan for the troop. The plan may ask the UC to help, but coming up with the plan was by no means a UC responsibility. This should not be on your shoulders alone. This is a district problem, not a UC problem. UC is only a communication connection between district and unit. Barry

I've been around a long time and I have never seen a fully uniformed troop where there wasn't some heavy influence from the adults one way or another. Not that I'm judging, I really don't care. But one has to take "it's the boys program" with a grain of salt. Our uniform policy is the scout handbook. It's pretty cut and dry, which keeps the adults from influencing the scouts with their personal opinions. We do have an activities uniform, mostly to give the field uniform a break in the Oklahoma 100 degree heat. But field uniforms are expected at meals and assemblies. Our guys do know how to wash uniform. I personally feel the uniform is a great tool for character self reflection. Just about every boy passes through a phase (around 14 years old) of paying special attention to their self image while wearing the uniform. How they handle it is a reflection of their character and a great opportunity to guide them in the values involved with the uniform. I also find adults struggle with the Uniform method more than any of the Other seven methods because their reasoning for or against it is more emotional than pragmatic to the growth of the scouts. Boys aren't near as emotional about uniforms and as a result, they are rebellious when they don't get reasonable answers that apply to their generation. Barry

Yes, that is true, but there is also the risk that the adults favor the non swimmer. I find many times that adults pride tends to blind them of their mistakes.