Eagledad

So you think the gay lifestyle is only about sex? I'm not sure the homosexual community considers you a friend. I'm sorry bob, but you won't find anywhere in the bible that righteousness requires tolerating to point of acceptance. If we follow your principles, then we must accept and embrace role models who are recruiters for the KKK, known convicted felons including sexual predators who have done there prison time. You support a dangerous and ridiculous assumption that all ALL behavior is safe for our children so long as we don't talk about it. If you think homosexuality is fine for you kids, great, but don't be judgmental to those that disagree. that would be intolerant.

Jesus also said not to lead children away from God. There is a difference between loving the sinner and condoning the sin. Accepting Role models who openly promote sin as an acceptable lifestyle is irresponsible. Barry

You can ease your concerns mom, one of my first Eagles was born totally deaf. To be honest, I can’t ever remember it being a problem for him because he can pretty much do what all the boys can do. He was much easier than learning disabled scouts. Our scout went on Philmont backpacking treks as well as canoeing in the Northern Tier. He could read lips well and believe it or not, spoke clear enough to fool people into not knowing he was deaf. So he had to remind people now and then they needed to look at him to read their lips. I remember him as one of my more cantankerous scouts because he actually was the one who like to tease other scouts. And then when someone would talk to him about his behavior, he conveniently couldn’t understand them. I had watched how he had no trouble in group conversations, so I called him on it and he was very embarrassed. He never pulled that trick on us again. He was a pretty good Patrol Leader, but leadership really wasn’t fun for him. Not because he was deaf, he just didn't like responsibility. The only time I saw his disability be a problem was on his EBOR. A day before his review, I called the Eagle Board Chairman to tell him our scout was deaf and needed to make sure they look straight at him when they spoke. But the chairman thought I was asking a favor, so he stopped me short of explaining the situation. Well long story short is that when the board members realized in the middle of the review that he was totally deaf, they were very flustered. He passed with only three questions asked. And I chewed them out later because he really was looking forward to showing off his skills. I have worked with many handicapped scouts and I always suggest to the parents and unit leaders that the parents should be involved to make easier on everyone. But from my experience at least, I will go out on a limb and say I don’t think a parent of a deaf scout needs to be present for their son to have a positive experience. Our scout had great parents, who would do anything for their son, but they gave him his independence in the troop and we never had a single problem that I felt having a parent would have helped. I also don’t like parents of disabled scouts to feel unit leaders are obligated to take on the baggage of their sons handicap. But again from my experience, a deaf scout who can read lips is not a burden on the leadership what so ever. In fact, they will enjoy the experience. True, you need to be a little picky on the unit and scout leaders, but your son is one case where just about any leader can handle the situation. I can’t imagine all the things going through your mind right now, as a parent this is so hard. But, I think your son can actually be the one to show you how to do this. I teach in the adult classes that the troop is the real world scaled down to a boys size. Your son is about to go through the physical and mental changes of becoming a man. I honestly can’t imagine a better place for all our sons to practice being an adult than in a troop. Scouting is a good place for your family. Barry

Of course they will weather the storm, there is tradition even in a name. But the GSA has been fighting the membership problem for many years with program changes that keep tilting progressive. The BSA just started their righting (lefting) of the ship. Looking at all the other youth scouting organizations in North America that have made progressive program changes, the BSA membership will likely never be as good as today. Someone on another forum the other day showed the membership of other youth organizations like FFA and 4H being stable or growing. Those are conservative programs, which means there is a place for parents who want their kids in stable values programs. I'm personally not a Trail Life fan because I don't think it encourages boy run, but 75% of adult volunteers in scouting today didn't have a scouting experience as a youth. They don't have a clue what boy run means. They want safety and security for their son on campouts with strange adults. Reading some of posts of leaders on this forum the last few weeks, no way I would send my son off with them. There are some hateful comments toward conservatives. But just as importantly, even liberals want to feel safe with where their kids hang out on the weekend. If Trail Life can do that, the program will probably do OK. The GSA fighting for it's life is an example that the worst thing that can happen to the BSA is that it develops a reputation for liberal leaning ideals. Barry

To be fair, states our requiring the camps to make the infrastructure up grades to meet state code.

A few questions, maybe this isn't the right place. How does a camp drive MB frenzies? I mean summer camp maybe, but a camp site? What are bible thumpers and why are they hypocrites? Just trying to understand, your world seems very different from ours. Barry

…I on the other hand, have 5 boys in a brand new troop and they are all 11 years old…..It’s all a matter of perspective stosh, we started with 12 Webelos. The philosophies of getting from A to Z are basically the same, just in much smaller doses. Young scouts are willing but don’t have the stamina of older scouts for the weight responsibility, which is one more reason why they need more free time outdoors. I found new scouts can stand about three months of group leadership before they burn out. That works for you because there is no election cycle in your troop. But the key is observe and know when the scout has reached his limit. It’s easy to see, when they don’t want to come back, the adults pushed too hard. I agree with the gap MattR mentions, that is also the age where they struggle with uniforms. 16 is a wonderful age for scouts. I found that scouts 15 and under to be the worst Troop Guides. But scouts 16 and older the best, even better than adults. Barry

I can see leadership and advancement are very important to you stosh and that is the big difference between our two styles. See, what you describe as SM approved duties (is approved a fair word?) are normal expected actions in our troop. Our scouts aren’t expected to have the maturity of PORs for couple years. But they are expected to develop habits of a servant heart, or living by the scout oath and law from day one. I call it a servant lifestyle. Leadership in our troop is just way of expressing a servant heart, or what is normally called servant leadership. Where you and I differ a lot is how we develop the leadership skills. Not good or bad, just different. My philosophy for leadership development is developing leadership skills during normal troop activities while the scouts are young. Positions of responsibilities (POR) in my mind are only opportunities to practice the skills the scout has already learned, not where scouts go to learn leadership skills. The scouts in PORs are encouraged to reflect on their experience to understand their performance and change some of their habits to improve or grow. We expect them to naturally be servant leaders because they are using servant skills they practiced in their everyday scouting activities. On average, our scouts won’t be on the PLC until they are around 13 years old, and I really prefer PLs be at least 14 because that is the age where I’ve learned they get the most from their leadership experience. That is the age were they really grow. And it’s not that we adults hold them back, (our scouts have full control of their destiny in the program) but the patrol leader’s responsibility in our troop demands that level of maturity and the scouts know it. Of course we have our 12 year old natural leaders who by their nature accel faster. I really enjoy watching them in action, they are special. I’ve worked with hundreds of scouts, I’ve only had three or four natural leaders. You know what I’ve learned about natural leaders, they don’t care much about advancement. Rank is boring to them. Isn’t that interesting? I believe scouts between the age of 10 and 13 should focus more on adventure and less concerned with POR’s and advancement. Both those will come naturally at the pace of the scout’s personality. You are focused on scouts advancing and making sure your scouts progress isn’t held by lacking a POR. We are different in that I could care less about the scout’s long term goals in advancement, leadership or anything really. My obsession with scouting is developing the skills of a moral decision maker. I also obsess for a program that doesn’t get in the way of a scouts farthest ambition, and in the short term develops his confidence to go the distance. We have 14 year old Eagles, but the average of our scouts going to their EBOR is around between 16 and 17. If you were to ask them why they took so long, they will tell you they were busy. If an 11 year old scout has some ambition for leadership responsibility, the SPL will look for something that he can handle at his maturity like leading our monthly road side trash pickup or planning and leading a COH. There are many opportunities to practice being a team leader, so it’s not a barrier. But personally, I would really rather the 11 year old lead a hike in the woods or even go fishing. I know how boys dream and the dream of an 11 year old is different from the dreams of a 16 year old. The program can handle both, so I don’t like to hurry the one at risk of sacrificing the other. We have almost as many scout between the ages of 14 to 17 as we have 10 to 13 years old. It’s interesting while I know we are very much the same, it’s our differences that give us very different perspectives of scouting. Not good or bad, just different. Barry

Your scenario failed the scout in the BOR. You imply it's because the adults in the BOR are heartless following the BSA guidelines when the scout and SM didn't. Your story changed quite a bit in your reply to me. You have some good advice to help leaders with their programs, but you feel the need to describe the other adults as heartless and controlling to make your point. Even more confusing is your post wasn't the context of the OPs question. The BSA program gives us a lot of latitude for helping scouts grow in the program, SM assigned PORs is just one of the tools to give us that latitude. I have given many SM assigned PORs to many mentally and physically handicapped scouts. And I also have wonderful success stories of disadvantaged boys who were a success in the troop as well as life now as an adult. One last thing about SM assigned PORs, the CC and parents need to be involved with the assignment to insure there is no confusion while the scout performs the duties and during BOR. Especially with handicapped scouts. In fact, depending on the severity of the handicap, I would also include the district commisioner in the process so that there wasnt any confusion at the EBOR down the road. Barry

Why do you assume the BOR judges the scout differently than you? Why would a competent SM allow a scout to consider his day to day normal duties to be considered for POR credit when nothing in the hand book supports it? The BSA troop program gives adults a lot of room to work within the guidelines. Your making this scout suffer for your defiance against a system "you" don't like. Did you warn his parents before you set their son on this trail? You preach boy independence, but do you have the courage to let the scout use the Scout Handbook to guide his scouting experience instead of following the Stosh Handbook? A little more Scout Handbook with a little less adult guidance and I don't think your scouts will find themselves in your straw man scenarios. Barry

Still trying to polish your social skills on the new parents BD? Your rant reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skits where Dan Aykrod yells "Jane you ignorant..hmmm". Well you know. Scoutmom, you are basing your questions under the misunderstanding that the main objective of the POS (leadership) experience is for advancement of rank. Evem many troop leaders have that misconception. Positions of Responsibility are intended to give scouts practice in real life situation of making decisions based from the Scout Law. While we parents by nature tend to look at the gratifications of stature for our children, that is not the primary mission of the Scouting Program. The program mission as stated by the BSA is:The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. POS or Leadership is one of the many methods of how the BSA accomplishes their mission. But you should also understand that POS experience isn't very useful unless it challenges a boy at his level of maturity and scouting experience. If the troop is running as designed, the Patrol Leader really should have a couple years experience in the troop to have the maturity and scouting experience for a quality leadership experience. I know there is a lot to learn about scouting and how it works, if you don't feel comfortable asking in this forum, there are several other Scout forums a little more understanding to new parents looking to learn. That being said, there are also a lot of good scouting direction here as well. Barry

Yes, the whole point of this exercise is to help the participants better understand how new scouts feel when joining a troop. We changed this part of the JLTC syllabus (NYLT predecessor). After all the participants arrived and before we did anything else, we instructed all the scouts that they had 30 minutes to form 8 man patrols, elect a leader, assign every patrol member a responsibility, then give the roster to the SPL. We felt the stress of finding 7 other patrol mates and forming a patrol from a room full of strangers gave the same effect without the deception. It wasn't simulation, those were the patrols for the rest of the week. Barry

Well said, and very clever.

I once witnessed a scout ceremony that involved the use of torches. All was fine until during the ceremony an adult tried to add some Coleman fuel to a torch that had just about gone out. Well a little fuel spilled on the ground and the lite part of the torch set the fuel on fire, including the fuel that splashed onto the adults sleeve. In very quiet manner, two other adults put the adult and the grass out. All was fine I thought to myself, a lesson learned. So I thought until not a few moments later the same adult repeated the exact same exercise to another dying torch with the exact same results. What did the scouts learn I wondered? Every adult has their own style of trying to influence others such as in teaching. One mans educational style is another mans style of deceptive. I have even seen deception used and taught at a professional level management training sessons. The crime of this style of influence in scouting is that the program puts a high value of role modeling on the scouts' growth of moral decision making. Some boys get it, many don't and they go on into life repeating Mr. Johnsons method of teaching (influence). The problem is in the old statement that people don't change. Perdidochas's ASM will continually behave in his style. As a SM who had to hold adults accounble for how they role modeled in front of scouts, I hated that part of the job. Not that SMs don't have their own faults, but someone has to set some kind of bar. I'm not throwing out advice here, but I would approach the ASM. Barry

I had a different theme every month. I typically tried to create ceremonies where everyone participated like to cheers, stomping feet or whatever. One of our families was American Indian, so we got together and made a ceremony using a basic dance of his tribe. We had everyone dancing and the parents talked about that ceremony for months. Where packs go wrong with ceremonies is that boys HATE to listen unless it's a story about with action. They absolutly hate speechs. Barry

I've told this story before about my first year as a CM, just before I was about to send our Webelos across the bridge to the troop they choose, I asked them why they picked this troop. They all said this troop had the best game at the troop meeting. All eight of those boys quit the BSA inside of one year. While I agree that the boys need to have input in their selection, I also think it's naive to assume they always know better than the adults. As a SM, I asked parents attend with their son so that their family made an educated choice based on all the information. Barry

What triggered the rules was image of the knives. The BSA was trying to get away from a military image and the larger fixed blade knives of the pop culture movies didn't fit in that image. As a result, all fixed blade knives were caught in the wave of no tolerance. One of the benefits of scouting in the past was teaching scout how to safely use the right tool for the right job. No tolerance policies don't encourage growth or education, they instead continue emotional inaction from ignorance. Teach the scouts the advantages and disadvantages of the different woods tools and let the them make their choices. Barry

I admit it is a bit of a risk, but out of my 16 Webelos who moved into troops, 12 got eagles and 14 aged out. So it's not a matter of can't, it's a matter of how. And that is what these forums are for. Barry

>>This is all theoretical, I'm Committee Chair and Wolf Leader<< It may be theoretical, but that is almost exactly how I handled my Den of 16 Webelos. Because of the size and planning required, I also change from three 1 hr den meetings a month to two 1 hr and 30 minute meetings a month to give me more time to plan and allow more room for program. I need more time because I planned two activities at the same time and had the switch after 20 mintues. On top that, I required two parents become assistant den leader, and two other parents to run the monthly theme activities that they planned. It was a close group so it worked out very well. I would not recommend it to anyone unless that is the absolute last option. As to the original question of Den size, I tried to keep dens to about eight scouts. Barry

Per, I had friends in the Canadian scouts at the time, it was a direct relationship. And there have been many articles since about it as well. 65% loss! The Canadian Scouts of today is nothing like it was in 1995. It's more of a YMCA type of program now. It lost it's soul. I can't say the BSA has or is going to fall that much. I'm pleasently surprised it's only 6%. But I have experience with collecting national membership data and it takes at least 18 months to get an accurate count on a single scout because it takes at least a year to take him off the council roster, and he may had signed up for that year several months before. Plus, there is not a National deadline for membership signup, each council has their own timeline and process for registration. If you have every followed BSA data, you know that it takes about five years to identify a trend with membership data. Barry

You guys are so funny. The Girl Scouts and Campfire Kids took a huge hit that they have yet to recover from when they allowed gays. The Canadian Scouts are somewhere around 35 percent of what they were when they allowed gays. But the BSA's cause for the membership drop after the admission of gays is "program"? LOL

Structure is always a problem for parents in boy run troops. You need to get your son to hang out with the patrol to really see how it works. I had a mom once visit us four meetings in a row. Her son liked the troop, but she was less than pleased because it appeared to lack structure. She tried with the last three visits to convince him we were not right for her son. I felt sorry for her because she admitted she was not comfortable with our troop but needed the visits to convince her son. She was pretty embarrased. Long story short is that all three of her sons aged out of the troop with an Eagle. And she was the best CC we ever had. See if your son can slip in with a patrol to follow them around. That will give him a real idea of the troop. Barry

Well, some troops are better than others with visits. And some days are better than others for troop programs. Give the troop another visit if you really want to consider them. But how to handle another troop if the same situation happens again is ask the SM if you and your son could meet the SPL for a few moments. Then ask both of them together some questions you would like to know like "Is this a typical troop meeting?". After you run out of questions, look at the SPL and ask him for a tour of the patrols to meet the patrol leaders. If he is too busy (likely), ask him if he could ask another scout. I think that is a non intrusive way of learning about the program without disturbing their meeting. And those few small actions will let you see how the boy run/ adult relationship works. Have few key questions you want to know ready before the meeting. Barry

You missed the whole point stosh, but the editor isn't working now. Another time maybe.

>>The rub comes when responsibility is delegated down a level and no authority goes with it. This is the #1 problem with the management style.