Eagledad

Exactly SS, now from the BSA advancement guide for the Eagle rank. "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your daily life. List on your Eagle Scout Rank Application the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references."" Let's help the OP with his question of scouts with no faith.

I think his point is pretty clear that it's not about his faith or anyone else's, but how to deal with the scouts no faith. Oh and you made your point clear when you poked your nose in the discussion with your first response.

SScout, duty to god is in the oath, sexuality is not. Now you and others can choose to make scouting what you want, but for others that take it seriously, skipping the hard stuff isn't an option. Pack, the OP didn't talk about his faith or anybody else's, they just asked a simple question of how to work with families of no faith. Considering your history of opinions on this subject, are you really the right person to answer? Barry

And if the scout isn't thrifty, ever? Then what, ignore it? What about friendly, courteous and kind? How do you equate those values of life in a scouts everyday living? Your belief has absolutely nothing to do with the question. God is part of scouting and a requirement of being a member. Your personal prejudice against this subject doesn't help volunteers who take scouting seriously and need real help. Barry

This is a good question. Are scout leaders to judge if a scout is living the god part of the oath and law in anyway or fashion? We here debate on end whether a scout is judged worthy of Eagle, but we don't dare ask the god question? And even worse, if a scout admits "simply nothing" of god, that's OK? This is the BSA and it is still presently a values program with the vision a making scouts into moral and ethical decision makers. If the choice is to ignore it, fine. But as stosh points out, future opinions from adult scout leaders of the other parts of the oath and law are held with equal or zero integrity.

That is my point Matt and you said it better than me. I think most of us have our own personal program goals to help keep us on track and our troop has a goal of building a program where the adults aren't needed if they didn't show up. That forces a train of thought of building a culture of trust and respect. Trust and respect are outward actions toward others. That kind of culture takes a long time, but it requires the adults to do a lot of self evaluations to mature enough for that kind of program. I've also been thinking about what you and qwazse posted and come to agree that this wasn't a misstep on Joebobs part, but a step toward improving the program by trying something. That is what good scout leaders do. Barry

What's interesting for me about how this discussion has gone is that I don' t think I ever used the words bully or intimidation while I was a Scoutmaster, I always applied the positive context of the Scout Law and Oath to describe behavior. I learned that when a scout is challenged with a question as to how their behavior fit in the guidelines of the law, they struggled to draw the answer if they were intending to be defensive. Asking the question many times stumps the quick witted scout forcing them to pause for an appropriate defense. And usually I quickly dismissed the scout to think about so we could discuss it later. They hated that, but it allowed time to change the tone of defense to one of a more concilitory discussion. I think the hardest habit for adults get away from in scouting is attacking a scout about his behavior. We only have to ask a question to force them to see repercussions of their choices. This really has little to do with Joebobs question, it was just on my mind. Barry

I'll go along with that qwazse. Where I struggle with Jobbob is his statement "Big kids intimidate smaller kids. In the real world, you and I are not going to change that.". Big kids don't intimidate smaller kids, he needs to change that perception. Bullies intimidate the weaker. Our program relies so much on the older scouts guiding the younger scouts that the very idea of boy run would be in conflict with JobBobs assumption. Intimidation happens in units where scouts don't support each other in accountibility. I think this is what jobBob is trying to fix, I agree and support him. I'm only suggesting a different approach. And while I do agree with you that learning that this scout intimidates other scouts is valuable, it doesn't in my mind justify using the PLC (immature PLC) in this manner. As I said, is Joebob setting a standard where the PLC has to call up every rude behavior? They are going to be quite busy. It would be better to teach the troop as a whole to confront bad behavior when it happens and as a group supporting each other. Our scouts have learned that scouts who watch a scout behave badly and do nothing was going to be held just as accountable as the misbehaved scout. You can't have a truly boy run program until the scouts feel safe with true independence. Leave the PLC to deal with the struggle of running the program or really bad behavior issues. Teach scouts to comfront and support each other. I hope that all makes sense. I also have a high respect for adults learning and feeling their way to running a program. I certainly did more wrong than I did right in growing with our units. As JoeBob pointed out, there is value in experienced opinions for trying something different to do better the next time. Barry

With full respect of what you are giving to the scouting program Joe, I am not trying to protect my pride here. I am only responding from my experience. Most folks on this forum know that I am the least politically correct person you will ever meet. But whatever you want to call it, boys have to grow and mature into the different levels of their decision making process. I let discovery go pretty far, but I drew the line when scout reacted out of fear. I once read from an old 1940s scout leaders’ guide that for a scout to learn a thing, he must repeat that thing. Well it goes both ways, if scouts repeatedly react from the emotion of fear, they will struggle to develop the habit of making decisions based from principled values. Scouting is a safe place. Growth from fear was not intended as part of the troop model. Barry

Well you guys have a better feel for this than I. Joe, nothing about your post makes me comfortable. The PLC did fine, but the two youngest scouts are too afraid to Punish the Scout? Punish? Is that what you are trying to get? And Afraid? How was this all fine? What punishment do you think this scout deserves? It's time to call in mom and dad and have discussion without the PLC. The adults need to do something with this Eagle so that young scouts aren't "afraid" of making decisions and his parents need to be an active part of the situation. I’m not sure how I see a punishment situation here, but certainly there needs to be an alignment of expectations and attitudes. I admit, not observing all this puts us at big disadvantage, but troop adults need to maintain a balance of maturity with the general maturity of the scouts so that they are not forced into making decisions from the emotion of fear or intimidation. I am all for scouts taking responsibility of holding other scouts accountable, but there is big gray area between accountability and punishment. That scouts are afraid tells me that your program is not yet at a maturity where scouts can be making these kinds of decisions. As I said I am not there, but from what you have posted, it looks like you might be a little too aggressive with the boy run. Barry

Your aren't old fashion Jblake, just a little boring. I performed this ceremony a dozen times and I'm still here to tell about it. It is a really cool ceremony LOL, but National now forbids it. As for adults setting the example, there is a right way to do anything, and a wrong way. The good example is doing it the right way. The Scouts in our troop take pride in going the extra mile for doing really cool ceremonies. Their creativity is pretty impressive and they have received standing ovations at summer camp. Our troop does a good job on safety training, but I admit I have seen some minor incidents in other troops. In each case, training followed. Barry

**At a recent troop meeting a 14 year-old Eagle said to a 13 year-old Tenderfoot: "You've never advanced, and you're never going to advance for the rest of your life." Not very Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, or Kind. As SM, how would you respond** Im still not sure why the PLC is involved at this point of your troop maturity. Do you expect them to deal with every discourteous comment made by preteen and teen boys in the troop? Discussing how to deal with bad behavior is challenging enough, now they need to deal with rudness? It's not like I haven't been in the same situations, but I am just not seeing how you are trying to get this kid to focus. It almost appears that you are very angry with this scout and trying to figure out how to punish him for what he did to the other scout. I would rather assemble a board of Eagles (both adults and youth) so he can listen face to face from his peers. And while I fully agree that this scout doesn't see himself in conflict with the Oath and Law, his Eagle peers certainly do. He is not getting the big picture that hopefully they can paint for him. The thing is that even though he may not see the light come on as far as his behavior, he will learn that others do and watching. They will hold him accountible everytime he steps out of line. Our scouts are told that they are held at a higher level (adult) as soon as they hit the rank of star or age 14, whichever comes first. This is a tough age, I seen 14 year old scouts like this make a complete change by age 16.

I don't think I read a single reply the mentions Scout Oath and Law. I would not call this bullying, but it is certianly very rude and un scout like behavior. My conferences in similar situations pointed out that Eagles are held to a higher standard because they are viewed by the community as role models. Then I ask him what model he just represented? How does his behavior fit with the Oath and Law? Then I dismiss him giving him time to think out it so we can talk again. Part of the problem is that while this kid appears to be smart, he is also inmature. He is physically still on the child side of his life. He may see the harm of his behavior, but not the wrong and is not going to change anytime soon. But get him to acknowledge the wrong of his behavior and he will at least he know that he will be left accountibile for both knowing the scouting values and for being an Eagle. Barry

Twocub said pretty much what I was writting. Barry

Call your nearest state park and ask them, they are always looking for help. We typically build bird houses.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598084/Building-responsible-men.html ""Unfortunately, the overwhelming good in the Scouting program is being drowned out by narrow political agendas. That is a shame, because no other program or organization has matched the record of the Boy Scouts in helping boys grow to become responsible men and fathers.""

Oh I will stay local, but I'm a big picture guy and I always look to the future of the program. Lately I've been reading a lot of illusions on forums of dividing troops in half to send away older scouts to protect the younger scouts and make the program more interesting for the older scouts. That is just one example, but folks today just don't understand the value of role models for teaching and I'm amazed at the number of adults who are just plain uncomfortable with the idea of older and younger scouts working together. It wasn't a problem 25 years ago when the vast majority of adult leader trainers had a scouting soul that came from their youth, but today camping out doors is actually intimidating to a lot of adults. As I said, around 25% of adult becoming leaders today were never scouts and most of them never camped. It takes a heavy hand to balance their vision of using rank and advancement as the main drive for their program when scout growth is based on experience of adventure. It's not their fault, when adults don't understand how camping drives character, they instinctively fall back on what they do know, class room style guidance. And like all of us, these adults want to measure if they are doing a good job as leaders, so how do they do that? Well they do it by what they do know, stature; rank and advancement. They just don't understand how patrol hikes make boys into men. Scouting has always had naive adults join the program, but the number of “been there done that†old school scouters outnumbered them and showed them the way. Not anymore, the program is being taken over by the scouting ignorant. I don’t mean that derogatorily, I mean that today’s adults just don’t understand the value of the outdoors in teaching boys to be men. Out doors is uncomfortable for todays adults and scouting skills scare them. They look at woods tools as weapons and reactively prohibit what they don’t understand instead of learning their proper use. As I said, it wasn't bad a few years ago when there were still a lot of old school scouter still around, but they are being quickly outnumbered by adults who's idea of teaching scout skills is pulling everyone in a room and showing pictures. I'm not whining about adults with bad intentions, I whining about progress and cultures change of expectations. And we can’t change it; the genie is out of the bottle. In our culture’s desire to be progressive, the machine takes casualties as it rolls over natural behavioral instinct with its idealism. I have worked with some really good female scouters and have no regrets, but do to the fact that they never had the youth experience of being boy scout, they have unintentionally feminized the program and created an unequal balance of nurturing over the masculine instinct to serve the community. I guess that seems unfair to some, but reality is what it is and there is no going back. Character has become passé. The Scout Law is no longer the virtuous guide of ethical maturity, it’s just words in a book. As I said, it has always been this way, but the program kept balance with those who had knowledge and experience. Now that knowledge and experience is outnumbered with well-intentioned ignorance. There are a lot of theories of where financial support comes from and why it’s going away. As with many theories on this forum, most folks are wrong. The vast majority of donations come from alumni. Of course the ridiculous theory of the quid pro quo is mostly wrong as well. Most donations given to the BSA are given from a passionate heart. It’s the same as those who give to their school or fraternity because the life changing memories of their youth. I had a friend who was very involved with the Campfire Kids program when they changed the program to accept gays and atheist. He said Campfire Kids suffered immediately because their large base of alumni donors bailed on the program. They will never recover because there is no equivalent for donations of passion. That was 25 years ago and he said if the BSA ever makes that same mistake, it would fall even farther because the Campfire Alumni support was less than 1% of what the BSA. I think we are seeing some of that now, but I have talked with enough people to see a deeper reason of why they are pulling their support. It’s not directly a result of the membership policy change, but more of a last straw. They simply don’t see the same BSA program that gave them the passion for scouting in the first place. The membership policy is just one small indicator of the direction the BSA has to go. And that direction for many is not scouting. I’m starting to get it now. Keep up the good work Matt, I meet adults all the time who thank me for their scouting experience. Some of them have three kids now. One autistic man the other day at Target walked up to me and pulled me aside to thank me for this experience in the troop way back when. He never camped and his time in the troop was a brief 18 months because of his many phobias, but it must have been significant, I could see it in his eyes. We forget how noble being a scouter volunteer can be. We have influence that we may never understand. I know of three engineers who give me credit for choosing that career path. If those are the kind conscious decisions scouts make because of our influence, imagine how we might have influenced some of their unconscious decisions. Well done Matt, well done. Still, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

There is so much irony in this thread, I'm amazed more hasn't been said. We preach even here about standing up to bullies, yet we let it go on. Barry

From Basementdwweller - I hope someday we will return to Lem's scouting and hope that as corporate America bows to the pressure of social media and vocal minority we will see it happen. '' And just what does that kind of scouting look like Base? Give or take, only about 25% of new adult volunteers had a scouting experience as a youth, just how do you expect to go back to old school scouting if nobody knows what that is? I know you have your encouraging style of helping new moms understand real scouting, but there is only one of you to save the world. I admit that after reading the forums lately (not just this one), I think traditional scouting is a thing of the past. For my own mental health, I will either have to turn away from scouting for good, or settle with the idea that some scouting is better than no scouting. I'm so glad I got my boys through scouting when I did. Barry

Hi joe, from my own experience and working with other troops like yours thru the years, I learned that you have to build "your" vision with the younger scouts. The older scouts are set in their ways and will resist change. Appease the older scouts, but build your vision with young guys. Your program isn't moving because they resists every step of the way. Young scouts are empty vessels excited to try something new. Everything looks like an adventure to them. Sit down and figure out how you can give the young scouts the troop and still give the older scouts something that keeps them coming. I do not like aged based patrols, but this once instance where it us the solution because it separates the excited young scouts from the boring plop campers. Also remember that the young scouts will eventually be the older scouts. So what you build today will be the models of your troop next year. Good or bad, you're stuck with it. So it's best to try and get it right. One other thing I can see from your post and a few others here, you don't see them a young men who lack experience of life. As long as they are just boys to you, your body language and even the tone of your voice will never show them the respect of an adult. They have little reason to aspire into behaving like adults. I think you are going the right direction, but change has to come from the young guys. Barry

Our troop follows the same policy and I'm curious Matt, do your scouts pretty much go to their tents at the same time like ours? It just seems that when they are ready, they all go to bed. And it is usually before the adults. Like Matt, I believe "time" is the best motivator of discipline. This is why I ask for an agenda from the SPL before we leave on the camp outs.

"About quarter to one the SM got up, got dressed, walked to the noisy tent and announced a three scout night hike starting now! The three scouts walked a mile out of camp then back as the SM followed them in his car keeping them in his headlights." I did this exact same thing. It was four new scouts excited on their first night of summer camp. Our adults don't camp with the boys, even at summer camp, so these boys had to be pretty loud to keep me up. I don't like to yell. I don' t yell. I quietly asked them to get dressed for a hike. We walked about mile talking about this and that, then went back to bed. Our troop's program typically wears the scouts out. They are dead by 10:00 pm. We don't mind scouts whispering with excitement, In fact, I kind of like it because my tent partner and I solved many of the worlds problems in our tent when I was a scout. But when they can't live by the scout law, the SPL is held responsible to solve the problem. The only reason I didn't bother the SPL at summer camp was we had a long hard day and he was whipped. So I handled that one. But, if your guys are still restless after a long day, you might consider that the scouts aren't planning enough program. Add a game of Capture the Flag somewhere in there to finish them off. Also campfires intentionally mellow scouts down. Campfire followed by a cracker barrow is almost like a sleeping pill. We don't plan Webelos weekends, we just include them in our normal campouts. We wore out 18 Webelos families one year on a campout. They were so beat by Sunday morning, they left after breakfast. I thought we would never see them again, but we crossed over 18 new scouts two months later because once the soreness wore off, they realized they had a blast. Barry

I once listen to a gay activist way back in the early 90's explain that their group's long range goal was change the public's view immorality as religious myths. I think they did just that.

The BSA's largest donations came from alumni. I don't know how much that suffered from the policy changes, but isn't coming back. Personally I believe the BSA at the moment is the best it every will be.