Eagledad

It's hard to throw out anything to a scouter who has been there and done that FOUR times. I imagine there isn't much you haven't done, seen, or tried. But you did make me think back and smile on some memories. I had two dens of Webelos and I ran them each completely different. With my first den, we planned all the activities so that the scouts knocked off a few requirements. All 12 of those Webelos earned all 20 Activity Badges, Woohoo! I also planned the activities with my 2nd den under activity badge themes, but this time with the primary objective to have FUN. Whether or not some of the boys boys already knocked off the requirements was in inconsequential because they all had fun. Only one of my 16 Webelos in the 2nd den got all 20 badges, but all of them including the den leaders had a lot more fun. I don't hardly remember any of the activities in the first den. But I still remember a lot of the cool stuff we did with the second Den. Barry

As I said, unless you understand the course, it's unlikely your scouts would use much of what they learn. And unless the SM understands the gaols of the course, the scouts themselves might not understand what they learned anyway. It's not as if they get a lot of time on how to apply their lessons. NYLT might be better than the old course there, but experts tell us that at best we come home with 15% of everything thrown at us. As I said, quality of a program set by expectations. Expectations always come from a higher authority, whether that be the SM or council. If the council isn't setting expectations on the units (adults) of NYLT or even Junior Leadership Develop, then the council as a whole deserves the quality of junior leadership that it gets. I had once wrote a Council Junior Leadership Development Guide for the troops that expressed the council's expectations for leadership development from a scouts first day all the way to NYLT director. Well it was JLTC back then. But we even included course staffing as part of leadership development. I guess I could have even included Wood Badge, but I can't imagine scouts getting better training than our youth leadership program at the time. LOL Barry

We did some research in our council and found that the scouts who got the least from the course were from troops with scoutmasters who didn't have a clue what the course was teaching. Of course there are the few SMs who just think they know it all, but most SMs are in the dark because the course didn't do much to bring the troop leaders up to speed. How can a SM support new ideas when they don't really know what those new ideas are? Our council started requiring each troop to provide an adult for day of orientation that explained the intent of the course and then help the adult and the scout build a plan to work the three main gaols (ticket items). The council got a lot of praise by the troops after tha because they could see the scouts making a difference to the program. Performance is a direct result of expectation and development. As result quality of units in a council can be raised by the expectations of the council. Training programs set the expectations and the quality of a whole council or district can be raised or lowered by the quality of training of the higher level. And while I think our council did a really good job of raising troop performance through our JLT program, I have concluded that it's the adults who could really benefit the most from taking the NYLT course. Barry

I agree LeCaster, I think you basically repeated everything I said. The problem with SM Specific is not just anybody can present it and keep it interesting for 12 hours. The challenge for Councils is not every district has skilled presenters, or even Training Committee Chairs that recognized the need for good presenters. By the way, I met one of the writers of the course and asked him why there was some inconsistencies with the material and he said because the course was written by three different authors who never met each other. They had set of objectives and when they were finished, they sent their material to National to be put together. They didn't know how long the course was going to take until the final version was tested. It helped me understand better why the course was a little jumpy. The way I helped our course move better was provide 3 SKILLED presenters over two days. Changing presenters every couple of hours helped everyone stay fresh. Oh, we also brought a lot of snacks. Our Council also experimented with a three night course but in the end the two day course was the most accepted. And I agree with what you say about IOLS, but the problem is the number of weekends scouters are required to attend to be a scouter. Not that many adults really enjoy several weekends of training, and that is the big issue we are dealing with. I also agree that mixing in Webelos training wasn't a good idea. I certainly agree that stuffing the two courses together isn't the right approach. However, how about three week nights (tue, wed, thru) of three hours before the weekend of camping. That way the courses could be combined in such a way to make it flow better right from thursday night into Friday night when when everyone meets at camp. Can you see I enjoy writing courses? Our council had a two weekend advanced skills course that was designed for Troop leaders with about two years experience. It was a backpacking course where the participants hiked from session to session. They didn't hike very far, it was just a way to each minimalist type of camping. The course was designed by one of the original WB course writters and it is by far the most enjoyable and educational skills course I've seen for adults. But it requires six "full" days (two weekends including a full day friday), which not many scouters are willing to give up. If you have some good ideas, you should call Council and ask if you can be part of the team writing the course. I found that once Council or district recognizes talent, they won't let go. Barry

You means something like Fast Start. Like Position Specific course (Scoutmaster Specific) [quote=mozartbrau;n409519and have the advanced course for those who can use that. IOLS Well, as I said, we have to respect the problem. I was on the district and council training committee and had a pretty good big picture of the problem. For one, not very many adults want to put that much time into training. While I'm not a big fan, more adults will do on line training than when it is presented in person. I don't know who does all the whining these days because I got out that side of the program, but when I was sent to units to help fix problems, practical skills was never the issue. It was organizational skills that was hurting the programs. After personal experience of teaching the old course and the new courses, I think the new courses do a much better job of getting adults to understand their goals and skills required to a minimal job than the old courses. But you need to understand, the old courses were appropriate back when 70 percent of the volunteers had a scouting experience as a youth. Its a whole demographic now. And please don't think I'm taking up for National, while I respect their challenges, I have little faith that they have the ability to do the job expected of them. My opinions are from my observations of working in the system. Scoutmaster Specific is one of the most dry boring courses I have ever had to give. To present it properly, we went out to find skilled presenters as well has divide the syllabus up into manageable sections. The information is good and important, but it is so long. And I don't see how it could be any shorter. And yet, that course doesn't even talk about practical skills, much less teach them. It is a difficult challenge. I am glad councils are trying to fill the holes and I wish them luck. I'm not sure I would want National trying to do it. Barry

I'm not sure they are wondering that. If you can get enough experience to understand how unit leaders are trained and who the unit leaders are, you may start to respect the problem of how much training is required to run a program. Give or take only about 25 to 35 percent of new volunteers had any kind of scouting experience, and not many more of them has an outdoors camping experience. So you get confronted with how much training does someone who is totally clueless of scouting need to have to run a unit program? Even worse, is it possible to give that adult enough training so that they can do an acceptable job without making them take a semester of courses? One problem I kept seeing with female Bear Den Leaders was they were terrified of camping and they wanted out before becoming a Webelos leader. If at best only 35% of adults have some kind of camping experience, you can imagine the challenge of getting adults at least comfortable with running a youth camping program. Like I said, walk a mile in Nationals shoes, and maybe we can at least respect the challenge. What exactly is the goal of IOLS? Is it to turn adults into skilled leaders? Can the course even do that? Are we reaching a point in our society where scouting will have to change to be safe for the adults? Barry

Yes you are right Stosh, that is the syllabus I was suggesting Kudu use to design a walking WB type course. It is interesting how councils are trying to fix these courses. The old SM Fundamentals course Stosh is talking about was broken up into the present SM Specific and IOLS course because there was so too information for one weekend. Let us know how it turns out. BArry

Yes, experienced troops eventually learn the system and dodge the problem areas, but new troops or new adult leadership seem to always fall in the traps. I was always trying to encourage our district to provide Eagle Project training so the units would understand what is expected of them and also give the units a chance to give comments. I suggested each unit be to send at least one adult once a year. In our council every district is different and it's hard even for the Council Training Committee to know the different expectations. Our troop had one family transfer in from another state who had a son ready to do his project. In her previous district, scouts attended two approval meetings, one to learn the expectations and the other to get the approval. I actually like that idea. But without asking anyone in our troop, mom and her son attended our district Eagle Project approval meeting and she ended up leaving in tears. When I heard about it, I called the District Committee Chair and eventually had the person who caused the problem removed himself. I know the leader well and it was a misunderstanding, but he knew he handled it wrong and voluntarily took himself off the board. In their effort to be fair, members of boards tend to get too set in their ways without understanding the justifications for policies set by previous members. I saw the problem across our council. A little training would go a long way to helping everyone understand the system. Barry

Your troop has a few boys talented in playing sports and they are still in scouts. Hmm, Randy, you ask a question but don't seem to like the answers. You keep supporting my point. Boys go where the fun is. If the BSA is losing scouts, it needs to look into its program to fix the problem. I admit the gay issue has taken the BSA down to its knees. That should have been no surprise, it has been said many times over the years that youth scouting organizations in North America that changed their admission policies to accept gays have never had the numbers they had before the policy change. And the PC activist aren't through, just ask Merlin. But at some point when all the political correctness chaff is separated and the BSA is beat down to where program determines its membership numbers, National will have to hold itself accountable. Families will go where they have the most fun. Barry

So your answer is boys will choose sports and video games even when scouting is more fun. Hmm, My observation is boys' do fun in the order of the most fun first to the least fun last. Barry

I'm curious, do you think a boy would choose scouting if it were more fun than sports and video games? Barry

The number of Service projects is really up to the unit and depends on their philosphy for their vision. Many units do service projects to help scouts meet advancement goals. Others do them to teach scouting values. Probably a good question to ask the SPL for new families visiting troops depending on the scout's personal goals. Barry

For both the boys and adults, if someone wants to raise a discussion or new topic, they have to call the SPL/CC to get on the agenda. The SPL/CC will put the topic in the appropiate place on the agenda. The SPL/CC need to be forceful enough to stop a discussion that is not on the agenda and move it to new business or ask to bring it up again the next meeting. It only takes a couple meetings for everyone to learn this structure and the meeting move a long a lot faster. Barry

Sorry, but I didn't want to hijack the coke thread anymore. But but you said earlier "A bit more mentoring and a lot less rules goes a long way in building real leadership among the boys". Mentoring by whom? While your statement alone is worth teaching, it is still out of context with your "no adults" restriction. No matter how you idealize youth theory, there is no getting around the Troop being an Adult program with a SM directing it. If you want to get into details, I think you will find the hypocracy of your theory because their has to be an adult somewhere in there for boys to grow, even if it is just MENTORING. But you have to remember that with experienced scouters who have been there and done that, one SM's so called mentoring is another SM's dictatorship. Your whole post is based on imaginary straw men presumptions. As I said, you just don't respect the skills required to develop an eight patrol boy run troop. I'm guessing that since you can't see yourself creative enough to do it, you just can' t fathom anyone else doing it. Even worse, you can't believe a different style to boy run could achieve the same or better performance. And that is too bad because your gold nuggets of wisdom are lost in the fog of your bias. Few people will ever attempt a troop like yours because the details required get lost in the theory. It's too hard for the average new adult leader without an instruction book. But some of the ideals you use to structure the growth, like Servant leadership, are the little gems that help give struggling leaders of any troop program a small building block toward building a noble program of developing moral decision makers. I hope one day you can understand that. Barry

I admit that I struggle with the general presumption that All SPLs are beholden to Scoutmasters and those programs are automatically dictatorial one man shows. There may be some troops like that, but it is far from the norm. And I don't care what kind of troop there is, even the scoutmasters of two scout troops should be the visionary directors of the program. It's naive at best to suggest that multiple layers of responsibility automatically requires a SM to be a dictator. That just shows a lack of creativity, But respect also behooves walking a mile in the other mans shoes. At the very least, humility demands assuming other units of all shapes and sizes that we haven't personally observed to be equal or better performing than ours. Most folks have no idea of the rare skills required to guide a larger boy run troop of several patrols who perform equally or better than a boy run troop of single patrol. Generalized degrading simplifications are either a show of ignorance or arrogance. Barry

You are much kinder TT in your reply. I have much to learn. Is it really so hard to present ideas without tearing the other guy down? Sorry for the hijack. Barry

Our thinking is that it’s the PLs responsibility for the health of the scouts, so as long as they can prove they are providing nutritious meals, they are good to go. SOOO, when the soda question came, we let the PLs decide and watched. Sure as the world the scouts drank too much and left cans all over the place. I asked the SPL how the liter and scouts hyped up on caffeine fit within the PLs health responsibilities. He took the issue to the Patrol leaders and they change the policy to two liter bottles per campout. Pretty reasonable response I thought. The liter bottles fixed both problems because the scouts just didn’t like messing with that size of drinks. The sodas faded away after three months without anyone saying a word. I also think the coke fad in our troop was just an expression of freedom. Our troop is a backpacking troop, so after the fun wore off, the work of carrying around liter size bottles, a cooler and ice just for the sodas motivated the scouts to choose the easier path of not hassling with it. One law of boy humanism I can always count on is that they will always take the path of least resistance. Adults tend to look at these things in a purist perspective, cokes and boy scout camping don’t mix. Same with Gameboys, cell phones and stuff like that. But there is really nothing wrong with cokes, or candy, or chips or other junk foods in responsible doses. So I don’t want the adults coming down as tyrants because of our old fashion ideas, I want them to serve each other by acting responsibly and health is part of being responsible. But like anything, humans have to push over the line to find the line. The scouts pushed too far then pulled back. I was proud of them and the coke issue solved itself. The challenge of these things is not trying to find a way to stop the scouts, but to be creative enough to use the opportunity for growth. However, it requires so much patience. So much patience! Barry

I used to have a copy, but that was 5 computers ago, I will look for it tomorrow. However, search for an old Brownsea or JLTC course syllabus, I think you will like those better. We designed a back packing course from one of those courses. I can't remember, which, but it doesn't matter. What are you thinking because those are leadership courses, it assumes the participants knows outdoor skills. You know what might be a better syllabus is the old Scoutmaster Basic course. That course is more skills oriented that included back packing. How many days and scouts? Barry

You didn't ask a question in your first post, you implied that you doubted the validity of the statement. Now you asking the question but I don't think you really want the answer because your somehow trying to justify your doubt by mentioning the FAA, 4H, NOLS, TL. How do those programs prevent the a scout from having a life changing experience? What does losing membership have to do with a life changing experience. I think you are bashing the BSA and just afraid to admit it. You must not have had a good experience because a scout is brave. Barry

Well of course that is a personal opinion, I have lots of life changing stories that scouts and their parents have passed on to me long after they were in the program. Could those scouts have had the same life changing experience with another organization? Who knows, maybe. But they had the experience in scouting, so I agree with the Deron that the BSA does offer life changing experiences.

Our Scouts like JLT type courses because they are a little different than the normal monthly camp outs. We keep them fun and pass along only the information they need to improve their skills. That's why we went away from duplicating a normal type camp out atmosphere. We aren't trying to teach the scout skills or camping skills they should already know, we are showing different styles of leadership or program management skills that will make their efforts easier. So we make the courses fun and special. Even at the council level we called the course a conference and treated the scouts as professionals coming to a conference to learn new skills. The scouts were totally responsible for their life outside of the conference, and really that was where the real lessons were learned. LOL Our PLC does 30 minute PLC meeting before each troop meeting every week instead one long monthly meeting on a weekend. We usually bring pizza so they don't have to worry about dinner. But even on camp outs I brought treats like cokes and candy, nuts, for the PLC meetings. They work hard, so my way of showing them respect is treating them special. But they do work hard, so they earn it. I think it's important to get your first Troop JLT (ISLT) out of the way so you can learn what works and what doesn't to improve the next one. Work to hand over the total training to the older scouts. Guide the SPL and older scouts to evaluate where the youth leadership are lacking and build your course around improving those skills. After a while, the older scouts get pretty good at it and like it. But remember, even at the Council level, leadership development courses only polish rough edges, they don't change the direction of the program. You need adults to change for that to happen. Barry

>>Our membership decline stems from our organization's seeming predisposition to try and dictate morality to folks.<< The BSA has a lot of internal program issues causing a lot of angst for adults. While a poll shows dropping support, there nothing out there to suggest the resistance to political correctness is the cause. I know the folks I talked to are less concerned on the moral issues and more concerned with being in a program that activist keep attacking. Families just don't want to be part of a cause. But there is just simply no numbers to show this. In fact I have been reading folks on this forum making these same predictions for 15 years. I could easily show where the numbers were falling during those years and it had nothing to do with progressives activist attacking the program. Still, I am concerned membership policy change the BSA just made may have very well hurt the program, but the only numbers that would really show that is the new scout numbers, and I expect that will take a couple years to understand. As I said, the BSA has internal program problems that need to be fixed first to stop the membership decline caused by those problems. I understand National is coming out with some pretty big changes this year. We will see, I remember holding my breath for changes with the Tiger program in 2000. Turns out the changes made the problems worse, not better. So I’m always skeptical that National understands the real causes to the problems they try to fix. Barry

I don't know, it's kind of hard to tell. I know folks today complain they aren't getting enough of outdoors training, but I'm not sure that the lack of training with the training changes that took place in 2000. The old course was not designed to train scout skills either. It was designed to give experienced Scoutmasters more instruction techniques and leadership skills. The skills sessions of the old course were intended to show different style of teaching, the students were supposed to already know the skills being taught. But the problem with the old course is the same problem I can see with the present course, the staffs don’t understand the overall objecitve. I remember listening to the Council WB Course Chairman of the old course complaining that his staffs were focusing too much on teaching scouts skills and not enough of teaching and leadership styles. That was around 1995 and by that time the courses were staffed by a lot of women who empathized with the participants and wanted them to get the training they wanted when they took the course. The result was a lot of troop committees were molding their troop programs identical to their WB course experience. That makes the troop less boy run, not more, so National wisely scraped the course. However, I guess the present course is suffering from the same problem. The staffs are still trying to use the course to teach scout skills and leadership when the intention is adult team building and program management. So that in a way does show the need for more outdoor skills training somewhere. The problem is we can’t keep sending adults through two weeks’ worth of course so they feel comfortable in their skills. That creates a recruiting and burnout problem. Not everyone is that passionate with scouting. Barry