Eagledad

They do, and that is the point, what does recognition have to do with the growth with any of those things? How does earning the Star rank better a scout in responsibility, leadership, service and Scout Spirit than actively serving as PORs, participating in community services and planning outdoor activities, campouts and treks? I just don't see rank representing maturity. And I don't see adults who allow scouts to make their own decision on advancement as bad leaders. Just doesn't make sense to me. Barry

What are the ranking skills of a Star Scout?

So I can understand you opinion better stoshs, let me asks: You often refer to Eagle rank as the highest honor of respect, could you ever imagine your troop's most respected scout to be only of First Class rank because advancement was never a priority in his scouting career? What would you do with the scout if he clearly was better at this scouting stuff than you. If a SM forces a scout who skills are far advanced for the PL position to be PL, isn't that SM limiting the growth of that scout as well as the scout who needs the PL experience for further growth? There is no right or wrong answer, but they might help me understand how you use work with scouts. Barry

I think you know what needs to be done, your troop has to have a heart to heart talk with dad. He needs to understand that your troop works with scouts as individuals, guiding them to each set their own goals and learning how to create paths to those goals. The adults job is only to help the scouts gain the skills to create their paths. Parents have to much emotion for that to work, so it is best they step back from personally guiding their son. This needs to be done in a way that the parent sees it as guidance from the group as a whole and not from just you or the SM. The problem here is that the group as a whole may not want to get involved in the drama even if they agree. But the sooner you deal with it, the easier it will be. Talk with your other adults and try to get everyone on the same page. Then two of you (you and the SM) invite dad over for a cup of coffee and a delicious cinnamon roll dripping with gooey sugar and butter. Barry

Well I so have some experience in this area and I had the reputation around here of being the master of doing something different, so I feel I can toss out a few things to help you along. First, don’t expect the scouts to jump on this because it is outdoors. Scouts do lots of outdoor stuff, so it is not an incentive. Adults are different that they are looking to learn from the experience, so they jump at it with both feet. Scouts on the other hand are into adventure and trust me when leadership development is thrown in the mix, they don’t see the adults vision. Adding more outdoors for the sake of “development, training, learning, growing†or anything like doesn’t come off as fun for scouts. What attracts scouts is “new†and “different†adventure. In my mind National has lost sight of how their program gets to their vision of developing men of character. But our troop even looks at High Adventure Treks as development experiences. How many discussion have you seen on this forum are specific to insuring scout growth on a Philmont trek? My point is be different, first create a great adventure, THEN work the growth of leadership development into the program. Here some ideas, drop off the patrol at one end of a camp in the dark and tell them they have to pack their gear and hike 4 miles to the other end of camp, by following a map, by a designated time where the adults will have hot supper ready and waiting the next day. The teamwork required to just set up and break camp is a big challenge for scouts, much less doing it in a timely manner. Then you can add lesson session (FUN lesson sessions) on stops along the way. Or you could add canoeing and biking as part of the trek. Our troop did a similar troop campout at our scout camp where we had access to canoes. Another way of doing this is have the patrol campout Friday night at your troop meeting location then break camp the next morning to back pack through town to another location. I planned something like that for a camporee. District didn’t use it. But you see the point, different is good if it is adventure. The hard part about this is that the adults have a vision of growth and the scouts have a vision of adventure. IT NEVER GOES THE WAY THE ADULTS EXPECT. And, you really need to understand the lessons or growth that you want the scouts to gain from the experience. There is nothing like an adult or SPL babbling away on some leadership thing that makes little sense because they really don’t know what they are talking about. Keep the lessons simple so that the scout get-it. You can talk about the four styles of leadership or the four steps to team building for hours, but trust me in that is the 80% of the yakking the scouts don’t take home. The point you want the boys to take away with them should be said in one sentence. I agree fully with you that the experience in the activity should guide them into the growth you want them to gain. I have found that time to be the best teacher, not the activity. I wish I could get adults to understand that agendas are the adults best friend. Imagine and agenda where the scouts have to get up, break camp, hike two to four miles for lunch at 11:00 am. Lunch will be gone by 11:10 am, so the scouts have to be on time. And before lunch, there will be two adventure rest stops where the scouts will be challenged with their skills. The adventure stops are your opportunities to teach. But they should also have some kind of reward for the scout. It can be anything. The agenda also had dinner at 5:00 but the scouts must have their camp set up for inspection before they can eat. All time between inspection and dinner is free time at the lake to fish, swim, canoe or whatever. See how time drives scouts toward an objective. Each objective has an incentive because incentives are adventure for the scouts. It’s not about that boring growth stuff to them, it’s about getting to the fun stuff. I remember our Philmont group had a busy day the next day and one of the stops was fly fishing. We adults didn’t have to say a thing for them to realize that if they wanted some time for the fun fly fishing, we needed to be on the trail by 5:30am in the dark. So they planned out the night before how they we going to do that, and we did. They worked as a team for that one incentive and they functioned better as a team the rest of the trek. I couldn’t have predicted that, time did it for me. To have a successful experience like you want, make it the weekend an adventure for the scouts and make the lesson leaders understand their subject. Your guys will go home ready to make your troop the best troop in the district. And this years participants will be next years program planners and leaders. It is just so cool. And when the other troops here about this, they will want to participate as well. I've seen happen. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Have you experienced this style of leadership training Hedgehog? I would be interested in hearing about the scouts experiences from it. Barry

The intent of service in our troop is to experience and develop the habit of serving others. We are trying to develop a natural state of mind. Our troop has a lot opportunities for service hours, so I never really cared what the scouts logged because I know they do more than reqired. Our PLC schedules a service project for every campout. At summer camp one year I watched a scout showing off a project to his younger brother that he had worked on several years before. Barry

I have no doubt that you are doing your son a great service with no intention of abusing the system. Many folks add additional rules and policies to prevent abuses they fear could happen, or has happened in the past. There is another discussion where many forum members feel the SM should not be a MB counselor for scouts in SM’s troop. It is not a BSA rule, but some feel the rule is needed to prevent abuse. For some of us, me included, the experience of earning the badge is just as important, if not more important, than the badge itself. The BSA recommends a process for each scout to follow that goes something along the lines of requesting a MB Counselor list form the SM, select a counselor, communicate with that counselor to set up a schedule for a meeting, get the counselors personal information to fill out the MB card, and present the MB card to the SM to for a signature. It is a pretty complicated process for most 10 and 11 year olds and requires they practice some communication skills. But they usually have it mastered by their 3rd badge. I would hate for a scout to miss out on some or all of that process because those skills are used a lot during their scouting experience. That is just one example of why the experience is important, there are many others. We have had scouts transfer from other programs who had the opposite experience. The adults in their troops performed all those actions I listed and the scout never even saw his cards until his Eagle BOR. For many of us, the process is important for scouts growth and maturity. Many leaders don’t see it that way. That is the reason for some of the replies that you are seeing. Barry

We have expereinced the same ambiguity from Eagle transfers and I'm guessing it has more to do with the scout being a stranger to the enviroment, not the position. I find the relationship between the JASM and the troop evolves into what it is, where as the transfer is given the postion without a lot of expectation. Generally our transfers age out before the the relationship gets broken in. That being said, I ran into of our past scouts who was an Eagle transfer. He was only our troop for a year before he aged out and joined the Army. He told me that his one year with our troop was one of his best memories of his scouting experience. So I guess we did OK. He was the scout I've mentioned before who resuscited a baby found at the bottom of a pool. Barry

The course has changed in the last 20 years, but we modified our versions over the years to fit our needs. Experts say that you will be lucky if this age group gets 20% of what you are throwing at them. A lot of adults take that to mean giving out 200% hoping they get enough. We took that to mean take out that 80% of the course we absolutely don’t need and work the program so scouts instead learn that 80% by observing role models. We also split the course into two courses. Our true skill introduction course was an overnight once a year course while the part that reviews POR responsibilities and expectations was presented after each election and only lasted an hour. Scouts hate repeating training courses, so we split it up so scouts would only get the parts they have never seen before. Also, our courses are usually followed with lock-ins so the scouts can play games all night long. The PLC considers that one of the benefits of being on the PLC. Observe and ask your scouts what part of the course they like and don’t like and figure out how to make the parts they don’t like different and better. Or don’t do those parts at all. Professionals in psychological development say that we humans learn 90% of our behavior by observing others. Observing in my book doesn’t include listening. Some training is important for behavior development, but also develop your program so that scouts get most of their education by observing other scouts during in the normal troop environment. Get them out in the woods and human nature will take care of most of what you are trying to get. Barry

We look at maturity, not age. Our JASMs are usually respected by both the adults and scouts as the Go-To scouts because they know how everything works. They are master scouts. It is not usually a POR the scout seeks to fill a requirement for advancement. Barry

I wasn't saying that the program is supposed to change. Some things need to updated for sure, but my point is the program changes as a result of the skills and abilities of the adult volunteers entering the program. My observation is that has not been a good thing for scouting overall. Barry

I really don't know what skeptic was trying to say. I think stories of the old days are great and fun to listen to, but I imagine my dad was listening to the same stories in 1944, when he was a 15 year old SM. I also have, or had, quite a bit of knowledge of the ends and outs of the program and in my opinion most folks here don’t have a clue why the BSA numbers are really declining. Oh it’s nice to validate ones biased personal opinion based on a local experience, but I think you would be surprised by the reality. And yes, I agree that the BSA seems to struggle to keep the program outdoors, but when you start to understand that 75 percent of new scout leaders today did not have a boy scout youth experience, then you can see why there isn’t as much demand for the back woods experience in the first place. And I while I admire and fully respect the efforts of women in our program, as long as they are allowed to have some input into the future of the program, it will only get worse. No disrespect to these noble hard working volunteers, but how can a program realistically maintain a consistent level of outdoor adventure and experience when the average adult proposing future changes didn’t have any experience as boy scout or outdoor experiences in the woods? Truth is the BSA has always changed with the times because the adult volunteers who drive the program use the skills and tools of their time. But when the culture started to detest the skills and methods of scouting, the program started losing its way toward becoming irrelevant. In the early days, the experiences of learning the skills required to survive in the woods also gave a boy freedom and confidence to work toward personal dreams. Scouting isn’t about freedom today. It is more about program because program is all the vision todays adults know. Anyone dare to let a patrol hike off for the weekend by themselves? Forget BSA policy, would anyone here encourage a patrol to camp for the weekend by themselves? Why not, don’t they have the skills? What’s the use in teaching confidence of independence if the adults lack the confidence to let the boys test their skills through independence? Today’s adults aren’t equipped to run the program of 25 years ago, much less 50 years ago. So to move forward, the BSA must change to fit with today’s adults. Is that what skeptic was trying to say? Barry

There are lots of ways to deal with this, but I have found that once burn out starts, it's hard to stop. Why do you feel you have to fire ASMs to bring more in? Just bring more ASMs in. Consider, annoucing that you are retiring in one year to take of CC and need to train the replacement. As a CC you can still have some control to support the program you started. Barry

We had a special needs scout once who couldn't complete a MB because of his handicap, so we called our district and asked for advice. We sat down with the District Commissioner discussed a plan and altered a requriement or something. I don't know what the offical word is on altering MBs, but that was how we approached it. Barry

Yes, I left it alone a day or two because I thought someone else would answer. I also felt kind of bad that it sent the discussion on a different path. The two adult policy is probably the most misunderstood and misused BSA policy. As for the JASMs, I sort of agree with Sentinal that the JASM is a good place for adult transition. But I had a few really good 15 year olds where the JASM position fit them best because they were such good all around scouting role models. As I said before, I don't focus on titles and POR so much for the olders scouts, I focus on putting them in situations of maximum growth. That is very difficult for the older scouts because most troops tend to focus on the younger scouts. But I believe the success of the younger scouts is directly related to the success of the older scouts. Barry

I also have been away a couple years, but I think the rule is still no one adult with one scout, which is solved by multiple scouts in the meeting. The two adults is for camping. Has that changed? Barry

You guys are making this too hard. The objective is scout growth and the challenge for the troop is to keep the scout challenged at his age and maturity. If you do that, you will end up with a lot of scouts like quazse describes. Don't let titles, rank or stature get in the way of their growth and you will have several scouts who perform better than the ASMs and even the SM. Call the scout whatever you think he deserves, but allow him to keep learning and growing. From my own experience it is hard to step back and let a scout do what are normally my SM duties, but it is inevitable for a troop that keeps maturing. Some scouts are just better at scouting than we are. ​Barry

>>My sons have had both really great MBCs and show very poor MBCs. I in now way view their receiving MBs from either as unethical. It was the experience they had. Simple as that. Plus, I really don't like then the inference that the other scouts they sat next to had lower ethical standards or are less worthy of rank advancement when it comes.

What about the scout's responsibility for a quality MB experience. Our troop guides the scouts in the purpose of the MB experience as well as how to enjoy the experience. If the counselor is just signing off requirements without really giving the scout a quality experience, the scout needs to make some ethical choices. I can't say that we are different from your troop to how we work with the scouts, but I have seen our scouts quit a counselor or redo a completed badge with another counselor because they didn't feel they were getting a quality experience. I'm sure there are scouts, as well as adults, who will "game" the system, but the program is about developing character, so we should encourage ethical choices by the scouts at the begining so they can make the right choices and not wait for some adult to intervine. Barry

Our council uses a MB Card that requires only one SM signature at the begining of the scouts MB process. How does a MBC signature imply unethical behavior? It can't, which is why National doesn't have a problem with a SM MBC. One of the challenges of being a good SM is what they don't know because when someone states mater-of-factly that the SM can't be a MBC, the SM might believe it, thus tying their hands of an opportunity for helping a scout’s growth. I believe the biggest barrier for scouts’ growth in all units are adults creating rules, regulations, restrictions and protocols based from their fears. I used to teach a class on this very subject helping adult leaders get their program past the adult fears. Look at the post in this discussion and look at the self-created MBC “guidelinesâ€Â. Most if not all are based simply from the fear of an adult making an unethical decision. National doesn’t support these guidelines, but you would think they were written in stone by the tone of scouters giving them. The OPs basic question was “Do you know if there are any limitations or restrictions for the merit badge process when a SM is also a MBC?â€Â. He followed with reasons for asking the question, but the simple answer is “The limitations for a SM are the same as all other MBCsâ€Â. Now some adults' fears may lead to adding more requirements and that is fine because all of us do it to some degree. But when we add requirements, we risk creating a barrier to a scouts growth because we lose the meaning of the process or method. From Nationals perspective, there are no more requirements on a SM being a MBC than any other registered scouter. And as far as I can tell, the MBC is the highest authority of the scout's performance for recognition of MB requirements even if the SM has a place to sign after all is done. Seems silly to me personally because I can't imagine how that signature could trump the MBC, but it's that fear thing again. Barry

What are National's published checks and balances for a SM being a MBC? Barry

The SM's responsibility is to provide a program of growth. If being a MBC is the only way a SM can fill a void for a scouts growth, then I think it is within their duties. Barry

I agree with all that has been said. I would also find a local packpacking expert learn how to lighten up your packs. Your food, crew gear, and water will add between 15 and 20lbs per person when you start on the trail, so I would try to set a max pack weight goal of 30lbs before you leave for camp. Some of us got it down to 25 lbs and a couple scouts even less. When your crew is waiting to load the bus to your trail head, you can watch all the crews weigh their packs. There was one young crew where nobodies pack weighed less than 55 lbs. I have to this day wondered how the they made out. Some of those boys weighed only a 130lbs. So get sharp and learn about your gear. Learn just what you have to have to enjoy the trek. An don't worry about it too much, we sent two dads (both in their late 50s) who had never camped in their life. Their sons' patrol was our very experience crew who were going on their 3rd or 4th Philmont trek, so we didn't feel they needed adults, but sent their dads to cover the requirment. The boys took veyr good care of their dads. And their dads have memories of a liftetime. Barry

We adults have to grow faster than the boys so as not to become a barrier to their growth. I found the skills and lessons I learned from the adversity of working with one struggling scout would get used again for several other scouts. Be sure and hand down those skills and lessons to new scouters. Barry