Eagledad

These things happen and you just have to chalk it up to a learning experience. What is the parents beef? You may not have handled it the best, but their son behaved badly. I like qwazses reply, but I have personally witnessed two SMs get in a fist fight over something more trivial, so I think you handled him fine by letting heads cool. Now a scout can receive both a SM conference and BOR without having to sign the book. You presented both as pass fail, but scouts can receive several SMC and BORs between rank advancements. Don't look at them as pass/fails, but as opportunities to listen and guide. I personally asked my scouts why they felt I should sign off the SM Conference requirement forcing them to justify advancing. In this case, I would have even suggested he take some time to think about it and call me when he was ready. Barry

This is how we do it. But I've implied several times that we don't use rank to drive the program. Each scout has different dreams, ambitions and desires from the scouting program, so rank would actually limit many scouts from parts of the program like leading a project. I would be surprised if a scout in our troop had reached 1st Class without leading some kind of project. We also used service projects to train new adults to how a boy run troop works. They are basically guided to the skill of stepping back instead of stepping forward. Because we do so many service projects of some type, the Eagle projects tend to be pretty big and complicated. I personally don't like that because it can be a lot more than the intent of what the project is trying to prove. But the scout usually get them done. I guess because they have done so many in the troop.

As a SM, I was not so concerned with the skills of new scouts as I was their confidience to camp their first overnight without an adult in the tent. I agree with Stosh, have fun. You want enough structure so that scouts aren't sitting around bored, but not so much structure that, well that they are bored. I beleive the GTSS allows scouts to boat with their parents. At least that was how we interpreted it 20 years ago. There is also fishing, hiking, biking, whiffle ball, fire building and on and on. Call the park service and ask them if there is any service project they could do. Our Webelos built owl houses with material provided by the park service and then had to hike in the woods to hang them up. But the thing about nature is that some kids get so little of it, just being there can take a boy to all sorts of adventures. I remember our Webs having great fun playing in the stream chasing crawdads. So much fun to do, so little time. If you want to insure that the trip has a scouting flavor, do a small Flag ceremony in the morning and evening. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

“â€ÂBrownie troops and Cub Scout dens can do the very same drive the following week and show the same level of leadership. What are you doing in your units to make these projects eagle worthy? CMM/SMMâ€Â†“â€ÂTotally AGREE! - There's a big difference between a service project and an Eagle Project. One being leadership. Stoshâ€Â†“â€ÂAnd what makes one assume that by shear determination of his personality, this young man didn't lead? "He's a remarkable young man." Stoshâ€Â†Always entertaining Stosh

Just curious, since you are starting all over, how many messages are you showing at the top of the page? Barry

Servant leadership is not an expectation? Barry

Until recently, you would hav seen "Eagledad" on my car.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to give you and opening to explain how your style is different from the example you presented. Your answer is training. All troops train stosh. Personally I don't know how scouts can perform a duty without knowing what their duty is. I'm very confused why you seem to shy away from expectations. We all have expectations all our life. Most adults who struggle with leadership development today don't struggle with expectations, they struggle with accountibiltity. It’s easy to say we train them then send them off in the woods for six months and wait to see what happens. But I know that isn’t how it works. Those of us who have been there and done that have styles and techniques for developing a program the gives scouts’ Maximum growth. What does stosh do to get maximum growth. Without using personal examples or experience, how would explain your preferred style of leadership development. Maybe a little less vague than train them than send them off without any expectation. Barry .

What I read is that stosh scouts perform better at PORs because they are given expectations, is that right? Barry

As I've said before, around 75% of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. The BSA has evolved toward adults being ignorant of the youth perspective of scouting. Nobodies fault, but how do we fix that?

Well actually the PORs are supposed to develop and encourage character, fitness and citizenship. I had a discussion with my dad about leadership and Eagles and he said that when he was a scout in the 40's, the Eagle represented character more than it represented leadership. Being a Scout in of itself represented leadership. Character was so important that judges were used by some councils for EBORs. Who knows why the BSA started requiring PORs as part of the Eagle requirements, but it has really muddied the water. If we were each asked privately the traits of leadership, I'm sure the answers would differ a lot. As a result, scouts outside of our troop transfering from other troops have been set up to fail. I'm not sure judging character was all that much easier. Barry

And I think that pretty much explains your cynical view of the scout program. You are out to prove Stosh Scouts is the best program, not Boy Scouts. You make it up as you go along then call it Scouting. Oh, you aren't the first, Kudu has a big jump. But Stoshs and Kudus come and go and leave little for others to follow and carry on. Remember Stosh, the saying goes that one man’s “boy run†is another man’s door to being the puppet master. What is rule number three of your three basic rules? "If the SM doesn't like the way scouts do the first two rules, the SM takes over." From my perspective, "THAT IS NOT BOY-LED, it is called SM-LED! The SPL is a position for assisting the PLs to run their programs. They come off as the scout in charge by outsiders because they stand in front of the troop during assemblies. But a mature troop guides and teaches their SPL to serve the PLs by helping them grow from their experience. The SPL can be a teacher, guide, mentor and cheerleader. The SPL should be a senior scout who has the experience and knowledge to help the PLs grow in areas like leadership, followship, meeting organization, group organization and servant leadership. In most cases the SPL should do most of the teaching by simply setting an example. The SPL should run his meeting exactly the way the PLs should run Patrol Corners. The SPL works personally with the PLs exactly the same as they should work with their patrol. The SPL is a servant to the PLs and needs serve exactly the same way the PLs are servants to the patrols. A good SPL will let the situations come to him and then attend to the situation by guiding the scout to create a solution and act. Most new PLs struggle with leadership because while their position gives them the authority, they may not have yet earned the respect of his fellow scouts as being the leader. That is where the SPL should help the PL grow in the position by using tools like conflict resolution, rosters, and delegated shared tasks among the team. I found my new SPLs struggle to just stand and wait for situations, they want to dive into everything because they know the answers and have yet to develop the patience to let the other scouts figure it out. Hmm, sound like adults, doesn’t it. But the SPL is a growing position just as much as any other POR. Who should the SPL use as an example of his responsibilities, the adults and more senior scouts. Where many Troops fail with the SPL is they put an inmature scout in the position who doesn’t have the skills to help the PLs grow in their positions. So yes many times they end up dictating what the SM tells them because neither the SM nor the SPL really know what to do. But that is not a flaw of the SPL position, it is a flaw in the adults not yet understanding scout growth. These are common skills that just about all troops and ALL adults have to learn to develop. How do we adults learn? By doing and then evaluating the results and changing to do it better next time. Kudus and Stoshs are rare, the rest of us aren’t born as perfect scout leaders. We have to humbly learn and grow. The SPL like the JASM are wonderful growth opportunities for scouts who have reached that level of maturity. When the adults start to use the positions from that perspective growth instead instead of requirements for rank, then all the PORs seem to step up in growth and the troop as a whole becomes much more mature. A troop is only as good as its senior leadership. You can observe that in every troop. Look for it at next summer camp. You will see what I mean. But the real trick is that true growth comes from the young scouts observing the older scouts in action. Barry

We try to keep the Den Leaders out of the pack activities committees like B&G, Pinewood, summer swim, and so on. And in most cases the chair of each activity recruits a couple assistants for the purpose of heading the activity the next year. Traditionally in our pack the 2nd year Webelos parents plan and run the B&G with help of the 1st year Webelos parents. You are right, planning the same basic annual Pack calendar makes it a lot easier. Barry

Yes, we also do only one planning session for the whole year (June). The committee still meets once a month to keep the program running smooth, but the Den Leaders are left alone. We keep them updated with Committee Meeting minutes and news letters. Barry

30 adults is normal for a troop of 90 scouts. That is about 15% of the total resource which is a typical number for any size troop. And, that doesn't mean they are all together at the same time. Typically only half the ASMs will attend each campout. Usually summer camp is where most volunteers will attend. The best way to increase the number of volunteers is to ask face to face. Some folks are better at asking than others. Identify who that person is and use their skills. Our troop developed a one month of training new parents. It usually involves just observing the boys in actions and explaining how all the parts work. We get a lot of volunteers from that group as well.Barry

"Highest rank", "work their way through", "patch to wear", "knot to wear". I know those quotes may be a little out of context, but this might not be the right frame of mind. I did exit interviews with 100s of Webelos and I can't recall that rank or patches being a reason for quiting or crossing over. The word "fun" came up a lot. I'm not saying I agree with the changes, I generally don't. But I can't help but feel that we adults have misunderstood priorities for the Webelos experience. Barry

Our CC once told me about a first year scout at summer camp that they had just finished doing his 2nd class BOR. When they asked him what we just discussed at his SM conference, he said he had not had one yet. When they told him we had it an hour earlier where I bought him an icecream bar and talked, he said that I always have friendly chats with him, so he didn't know the difference. The word conference confuses a lot of us into thinking it should be a formal meeting with a somewhat business style discussion. And it can be, especially Eagle conferences. But my personal style of scoutmastering is talking to scouts enough to already know the answers of what might be asked at a formal conference. You have the advantage Scouter205 of being about the same age as the scouts, so you can and do have a lot of discussions with the scouts. I think what I and many scoutmasters (and adults in general) need to practice is just listening. That is so much harder than you think. I remember my first SPL while I was a SM, he just wasn't performing up to my expectations. I decided to ask him to dinner for pizza so we could talk about his performance. I was also concerned how to approach this discussion, so I asked here on Scouter.com for some help. This was back when the forum was a lot more active with experienced scouters. I got all kinds of answers, but one very wise scouter asked me if I knew how he felt about his performance so far. That question hit me like a ton of bricks. I had never asked. So I did ask that night during pizza and his face lite up while bragging about all the skills. He went on and on of how he was getting better at teaching, running meetings, creating agendas and so on. I was so focused on where "I" wanted him to go that I had forgotten to see how far "he" had come. All that by asking one single question and then just listening. In just a few minutes, I had gone from being disapointed with my SPL to being very very proud of him. Being proud is so much more fun. I think it would be good to listen in to a few conferences if your SM thinks it is OK. Sometimes the discussion my be more personal than fellow scouts needs to know. But remember, each SM has their own style, so learn from what you hear, but realize that you will likely do it a little different to fit your style. I guided my scouts with your maturity to just practice talking a little less and listening a little more. Practice asking questions without ever really giving your own answers because it is the other persons answer that is important. Just asking "was that fun or what" gives people and opening to feel good about themselves. Try to do less guiding and instead ask a couple questions to get the other person to guide themselves. You don't have to always come off as the know-it-all. Give them a chance to see that they know-it too. As SM I might ask how a scouts actions practiced the scout law. Then I leave it up to him to determine if and how he did that. Try to be as good a cheer leader as you are guide of their moral actions. I'm glad to see that you are wanting to learn more to improve your future. Very mature, very smart. I'm sure you will be a great JASM as well as SM. Barry

They won't ignore you, they will give guidance if asked. But they won't aggressively come to your door and start an investigation. They tend to stand in the corner as much as they can until the issue requires a council level action, which is rare believe or not. If you could stand in the shoes of a DE for one day and listen to their many phone calls, you would start to understand why they take the passive approach. 9 times out of 10 the units fix the problem. Council sees so many of what looks like a mountain to a parent, but are just a mole hill once the emotions are balanced with reason. So they wait it out. Of course if it is a true situation of abuse where scouts are in real danger or laws have been broken, council will react responsibly. The best advice for all units is nip your problems in the bud. Don't let known issues escalate into dangerous situations, which is what most folks are saying here. But most adults don't like drama, they especially don't like confrontation and they don't want to be a bad guy, so they wait it out for someone else to act. And they wait, and they wait until something goes too far. That is generally how most of these things go. I am sure this SM showed signs of his problems long before it got to this stage, but nobody stepped up. And while I say bad guy, they aren't really the bad guy, most folks are waiting for someone to step up. But, we all perceive that it would be the bad guy. In reality they are relieved that somebody did what they wanted to do. This situation is more of a problem because the SM's wife is the CC. By rule, the CC doesn't have anymore repsonsibility in this situation than an ASM. But because the CC is responsible for soundness of the troop structure, they are generally relied on to an active role in fixing the problem. But now it is best that she not be an active part of meetings on this particular situation. She should be told there is a meeting, and will be briefed by the COR or Council representative depending on the results. One last thing, it is my observation that women handle the responsibility of acting prudently better than men. The best committee chairman in our units have always been women. they have no fear of getting in the face of an adult who getting out of line. I have watched SM after SM paint themselves into a corner by passively giving adults AND scouts second and third chances, then the CC or COR, or council is left to save the day when angry parents are threatening litigation. Barry

Unlikely. Typically SE's encourage the unit to deal with it. They have enough problems and resist taking on more by getting involved in every units issues. And you would be surprised how often these kinds of problems occur. During my first year as a CM, our pack had to ask two Den leaders to quit because they were drinking during meetings and deal with one parent who got drunk during a council Cub science lock-in. To the parent's credit, he was so embarrassed that he checked into rehab that week. But my point is leaders with severe personal issues is pretty common, so the council pushes the unit to deal with them as best they can. They will observe and monitor if you request or if litigation becomes a risk. Barry

We had a troop do this exact same thing. The only difference was the SM wanted to stay, so the committee let him. Council did it for them when the SM got caught offering a scout a beer at summer camp. This SM had caused all sorts of other problems for the troop as well, but they didn't want to be confrontational. Your SM is out and I would be surprised he steps back in. But my own personal experience is that most folks will let things escalate pretty far simply because they don't want to be bad guys. If and when the time comes, you will have to be the bad guy. I don't think the time will come, but if it does, be ready. Barry

I guess what you want is for the troop to forget the review. My experience with troubled adults is that their problem doesn't typically improve in a short time. You got the hard part done, the SM voluntarily left. You just need to shut the door. If it were me, I would call a meeting with only the CC and COR and ask them how they are going to tell the SM that it is over. I arranged this same kind of meeting for an abusive ASM. Don't make it an option. This is the best thing for everyone and I'm pretty sure the SM will be relieved. Barry

We keep and extensive MB counselor list first of all. Ours is much better than counsels or districts. We make it by trading list with other troops. Another thing we do is ask at least two counselors a month to introduce themselves to the scouts and give a five minute commercial about their badge. They leave flyers with their name and number for scout who interested. That is 24 badges a year just from doing that. I don’t care for MB colleges, but we allow the scouts to participate if they want. A few do, usually those who need only a couple to complete a rank, but it is not pushed. Then once in a while a counselor will announce that they will be around on a specific day, evening or weekend and anyone who wants to earn that badge should call them. I don’t like group classes, but some badges just lend themselves to it, so we allow it if the scout initiate the contact and learn more about the class and times. This has always been popular for car mechanics and rocketry. I can’t believe your camp wont let you do a troop activity. It’s no big deal to them other than a couple of staffers putting in overtime. Of course it has to be done during free time, but that really isn’t that hard. I think shooting sports are our scouts favorite. Next year call the camp and tell them you expect them to provide a troop activity, or two. Then work your way up all they up to the Council Executive if you have too. Barry

Some years ago I was talking to the new camp director who was tasked with adding more fun and adventure activities to the summer camp program. I don't remember much of the discussion except that he said liability insurance for mountain biking was ten times more than any other activity in camp. Really the problem is with the unit leaders. Councils generally build their camp programs around the desires of the troops. I think troop leaders just don't know how to have fun. I agree that scouts are much more wanting of fun than advancement when given the choice. Our troop plans additional activities at summer camp like our own campfires and group activities on the water front, shooting ranges, or whatever the camp offers. We ask the staff to blocked out a time for the troop and we have never been turned down. The troop also brings whiffle ball sets, baseballs, footballs, chess, checkers, cards and whatever else scouts can grab for a few minutes. Our scouts are always filling their spare time something other than advancement. Another BIG problem I've seen in our area is that most troops really only have a couple of advancement seasons. Typically it is summer camp and something in the winter like a MB College. They have to do advancement at camp for scouts to advance. Our troop works on advancement all year long. So for us "Fun" is the primary motivation of summer camps. That's why we typically look for camps that are little different than our local camp, we are looking for fun activities. And we always try to do a special activity on our way home. Anything from a day at Six Flags to White water rafting. It's kind of a Catch 22, troops complain about camps being MB Mills, but the camps only do what the troops want. Camps don't need to change, they are followers and change by nature. Troops need to change by learning how to bring the fun to camp. I Love this scouting stuff. Barry