Eagledad

I am so very impressed. You are going to make a great Scoutmaster. I admit that I’ve grown frustrated with some members on this forum who talk all day long of a patrol method and boy run, but separate advancement, rank and even uniform as something the adults must control to maintain some kind of imaginary integrity of the program. That means they don’t understand or really trust boy run and patrol method. You in short said, if the adults build the Patrol Method part of the program correctly, everything else will follow and the adults should not have to interfere in any of the Eight Methods for scouts to grow to their full maturity. That is exactly right. Does anyone here have the courage to never push a scout to any rank? Could they possibly never even mention the word Eagle trusting that the program will do all the talking for them? That should be the goal. We shouldn’t need to worry about the quality of Eagles if the program builds quality scouts. Not all scouts want to be Eagles, so why should they have to suffer under the dreams of the adults? Shouldn’t every scout be the best he can be of his dream? The adults’ responsibility is to develop a program where scouts are free from adult influence of making independent decisions. If a scout chooses to be a Tenderfoot for the next three years, it shouldn’t be the adults concern so long as he is continually growing. The adults’ only concern is to insure that the program has the structure to challenge “all†boys at “all†ages to work and reach their dreams. If you were to interview 11 year old boys and ask them to honestly say what they want from the troop, you might hear 1 boy in 20 say “Eagleâ€Â. But adults put so much pressure on boys to be Eagles, they say Eagle just because they know that is what the adult wants to hear. Now, if you interview a 15 year old in a mature boy run troop and ask him his desire of the program, at least half will speak of the Eagle. The reason is because a good troop constantly challenges a boy to grow and that growth teaches boys to look farther ahead to dreams he once never thought possible. These troops don’t send 11 year olds to leadership development training so they can be a 12 year old Patrol Leader. They let the scout grow in little steps through a fun program to develop the confidence of working as part of the team and learning skills that give him independence to survive by himself in unusual situations. I have often said that the best way to measure the quality of the troop program is by observing the older scouts. Do this at your next summer camp. Older scouts are the results of how the program develops the younger scouts. To many adults think of scouting as being over at age 14, but in reality that is the when it becomes the most fun and most rewarding for the scouts because that is when they get to be adults. That is also the hardest part of the program for adults to develop. The most successful troops are obvious in that scouts are excited to be in the program because they feel good about themselves. The troop should be the one place where the introverted scout is recognized by his abilities that contribute to the Patrol. His weakness should not be a restraint on his quest to his dream.. My challenge to all here is develop a program that creates Eagles without EVER EVER mentioning the “E†word to a single scout in the context of him reaching that goal. The program should take a boy to “his†dreams, not his “leaders†dreams. I can assure you such a program will make more Eagles than you could ever dream. But more important, all your scouts will be the best men of character and citizens of integrity. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yep I agree. I find these advancement/skills/Eagles threads "very" interesting. Leaders here blather on and on to how a boy run program should work. But once they get into the details of advancements and skills, there sure is a lot of adult directing. And what is so amazing is they don't see it. This includes myself, but I learned while working at the district level that once we start judging other programs, we automatically become hypocrites. Barry

I think this concept is so very important and requires experience for most adults to understand. I certainly was humbled to learn and understand it myself. Just like everyone else in the world, all scouts are different in their goals, ambitions, desires and habits. Some scouts want to be the best and on top of the world, but most are satisfied with lesser objectives. If the adults judge success or failure of all scouts by the level of performance of the top performing scout, then the majority of scouts will never succeed with those adults. You see some of that here in the forum with the Eagle discussions. Kind of an ‘Eagles in other troops wouldn’t be worthy in my troop†attitude. At the same time, if the adults set only mediocre expectations for all the scouts, then you find the more ambitious scouts getting bored and moving on because they aren’t challenged mentally or physically. This is the main cause of troops who can’t maintain the older scouts. Many troops build their program around developing scouts’ skills (basically first class maturity), and leave it at that. Once scouts reach that maturity, they are only expected to take on the responsibility of making sure the younger scouts reach that maturity. Well that means the scouts repeat the same-ol same-ol over and over and the program never matures above the 13 year old level. Many adults call it babysitting because it has the appearance of scouts just leading scouts around keeping them out of trouble. But in reality, it is just a program that won’t mature beyond the prepubescent stage of life. Older scouts don't leave because they don't like working with younger scouts, they actually enjoy it a lot because it is an adult responsibility. Older scouts leave because they are so terribly bored. Adults need to grow to the concept that a mature program is one where there is no one set expectation for all scouts. Focus needs to be on individual growth with individual challenges and individual expectations. The “natural leader†who gets his greatest satisfaction needs to be challenged to grow in leadership skills that enhance his dreams for himself. A scout who is in a leadership positions but doesn’t have the same skills or vision should NOT be held to the same standards of that natural leader. Instead he should only be held to a standard greater than when he started and has obtained growth. He should be expected to grow. As Hedgehog points out, scouts should feel safe that while they will be challenged, failures are normal experiences when striving to succeed. A scout who puts out effort will never be considered a failure. Folks here would be amazed by how many scout leaders have approached me asking how to remove a poor performing scout from his POR. Since I don’t have personal experience with their situation, I only ask them if the scout has shown any growth from the experience. I don’t know if the adults expectations are reasonable, but surly there is something the adult can find in praising the scout efforts. If not, then it is the adults fault for allowing the scout to be in such a position. Once your scouts develop a trust that the troop culture is one where failure from hard work, as well as success, are considered positive growth experiences, then the troop program will mature. Boys who normally don’t risk losing their self-confidence by failing in front of their peers will take that scary step forward in the unknown to at least give it a try. Once the program reaches that level of maturity, scouts will stay in the program because it is the one place in their lifestyle where they actually can achieve dreams. Barry

Do a search on Coke Bottle Rockets. Cheap and easy. It is an outdoor activity, but I did it in one meeting with my Webelos. It is a much fun to watch as it is to participate and you can shoot off as many rockets at the same time as you have launchers. BArry

Nice post Hedgehog. Barry

Behavior is shaped by the culture. Of course there lazy scouts just like there are type "A" scouts in all aged based, mixed age patrol method troop method programs. But if the culture somewhat supports older scouts sluffing off the work to young scouts, that is what they will do, But do all troops do that? No of course not. My experience is that this kind of culture comes from an adult driven program because the adults drive the program leaving older scouts to just sit around. Which is also the reason I don't care for age based patrols. Scouts grow by watching others and when most of who they watch has the same experience as themselves, the adults have step in one way or another to push more growth. But there is a different problem with old scouts when making dramatic troop program changes I didn't mention to Sentinel because I didn't want to throw a lot at him at once. But since the discussion was taking a tall tails route, I better add my experience. Basic rule is that older scouts don't change. Pretty much the culture that a scout learns before puberty is set in after. I have yet to see a program successfully change a culture like going from troop method to patrol method with the older scouts buying in. Especially going from adult run to boy run. Change comes from the younger scouts. This has proven out to be so consistent that now I suggest to troop leaders plan at the beginning to split the program with the younger scouts functioning under the new program and leave the older scouts alone as best they can so they stay with the program. There is some value with the older scouts helping out as leaders, but in general, they will rebel and the adults will find them a drag on the program. Every set of leaders gives the older scouts a try and I’m all for that. If they can find a way of doing it, we all gain from the knowledge. But usually the adults eventually just go to the younger scouts to make the change. Its due to our natural instinct. By nature we human learn most of our behavior by watching others around us until we reach puberty. Then after puberty we go into survival mode using what we learned. We are built that way to survive back before we had schools and teachers. We instinctivly watch our parents to learn how to be productive (or not) adults. Same goes with the troop culture, what a scout learns before age 14 he uses after age 14, good and bad. "They know they can dupe the young guys!" For Pete sake Stosh, somebody might actually believe you. Barry

It is important that you keep the adults from back sliding, but what is back sliding. The only way a dramatic change can happen is for the adults to want it to happen. And for them to want it to happen, they need to know what they want to happen. I’ve helped a few troops through this process and the first thing was getting the adults to identify just what they want. What is the vision of the patrol method the adults want to see from the scouts. If the adults are not of the same mind, they will eventually be confusing the scouts by opposing each other. Also, if the adults don’t know where they are going, how will they know if the scouts are going in a positive direction? Boy run troops can look completely chaotic from the outside, so if you didn’t know what you were looking at, you might be incline to yell stop. And it is OK for the adults to change a little bit as well. You might start out thinking new boy patrols is the way to go only to see that they don’t like to camp out because it’s not any fun. Something has to change. Age base patrols, mixed age patrols, which works better? Are the scouting growing, are they having fun? I usually ask the troop to issue Patrol Leaders Handbooks and SPL Handbooks to the adults and scouts so that they all had the same program plan. Then the scouts are asked to run the program from the books with the adults observing. When the boys run into a kink in the road, they sit down and discuss it with the adults and together come up with a solution using the hand books as best they can for a guide. The books give the scouts independence from the adults, but also give the adults kind of a picture of what they can expect from the scouts. Now whether or not you use those books for a different plan, it is very important “to start simpleâ€Â. I can promise you that the program you start with today will not be the program you see a year from now. A lot of changes will be made to reach your vision. Usually it’s the adjusting more than the adults. I’m not really sure what you mean by patrol method, but that usually means to get each patrol to function independently. Basically the PL should be leading the patrol with as little input from outside the patrol as possible with the eventual goal of becoming completely independent. One last thing that many adults don’t respect at the beginning of these kinds of changes, “The adults need to learn more faster than the scouts so as not to get in the scouts way.†The adults will find that challenge to be a lot of work at first. They need to evaluate if the patrols are progressing toward the vision or regressing. Does age based patrols encourage more growth or mixed age patrols? Why? What needs to change for better performance? I watched a troop lose 15 of its 30 new scouts in the first three months because the adults just weren’t ready for the troop to become that big. They tried to force the old program to work with triple the number. They had to evaluate where the program was failing and adjust to meet the needs of the scouts and to progress toward the vision. If you have the will to see this through, you will reap the rewards of watching hundreds of boys growing into men of character and leaders of integrity. There is very little in life that tops that. You will love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes he could, so why would an adult ever need to a scout he is out of uniform?

How would a scout know? Barry

You use one personal experience to shut down a troop for one flaw in their program. You guys need to walk a mile in the DE's shoes and really see how programs are run. I can assure that every program including the great Stosh has red flags. There is no worse action than over reaction. You don't know enough about this troop to shut it down. Barry

It's interesting to me that you don't view rank advancement as fun. Or that "fun" doesn't include rank advancement. Barry

Well as someone who has worked at both the district and council level, I will say you don't have near enough information on this troop to know if it is a bad troop. The best I could say from my experience that it is likely not a boy run troop. That in of itself is a good reason to look around, but it's not like boy run programs are the majority and easy to find. Most if not all troops don't follow all the rules, it's just a matter of where each unit feels they can enhance their program by crossing a line. Strict uniform code? Please! Very common and I even found over the years many leaders here justifying their so-called boy run program with full uniforms. All I can say is I have never seen a fully uniformed boy run program. And as far as condemning the retesting at conferences, go back to some recent young Eagle discussions and read how some say they will ensure their scouts are stamped into the eagle they think they should be. I am amazed how we sometimes turn things around to justify our desires. Barry

This sounds like the troop culture, so it's a Scoutmaster issue. What your son needs is a true Scoutmaster Conference where the SM has a heart to heart discussion about your sons experience, not a test of skills. He may not get that in this culture. So my suggestion is for him to request a BOR so he can explain his struggle there. But I think he is likely to get the "this is how we do it" answer. Honestly you have not described a bad troop, just one that has high expectations and accountability. It doesn't sound very boy run, but a troop like that may be rare in your area. I agree that your son needs to take a lead on this, but a parent also has a right to understand the program. You can be inquisitive without being a demanding helicopter parent. Yes, thinking about, I agree with others that your son needs to talk with SM. He could start by asking the SPL to help him. Barry

Correct. I said several times that when leaders try to keep parents away from the scouts that it leads to leaders being asked to leave and/or litigation. But those go without saying, so even have to mention them. There is a difference between making parents jump through hoops to keep them away and just trying to provide a safe environment. By the way, have the rules changes so that drivers have to get training and registration? What kind of training other than YP? Because I felt you turned it into a anti parent discussion. I was wondering, the adults are by the fire relaxing when one of the parents insist on going to talk with the scouts. How are you going to react and why? And that's what happens in my troop, so I have no idea why the comment. Because it's not important how your troop functions, it's important that everyone understands why.

When parents aren't allowed, secret is implied whether or not it is the case.

That is exactly right. It is not your problem. Adults do act as expected when they are given expectations. consistent bad adult behavior is directly a result of consistant bad unit leaders. Adults go do what adult go do and the scouts go do their thing. The SM shouldn't worry about the adults unless they do interrupt the boys part of the program, then the SM guides and teaches the adults how it works. But they will and do get it. Oh there is the occasional odd parent that doesn't follow the guidelines and they have to be treated different, but that isn't the usual normal behavior of parents. By the way, I have observed a little of the litigation side. I wasn't kidding when I said holding back from parents can lead to ligation. Go ahead and speak to those lawyers you refer to and they will tell you that the vast majority of the situations are caused by unit leaders not being open to the parents. I know that sounds a little funny, but there is something about being a scout leader that makes us feel like we can help boys grow by not telling their parents everything. It's all with good intentions of course, but it can backfire when mom finds out that something happened that they feel is important. I advise all leaders in training to never hold or promise to hold ANY secrets between scouts and their parents. A lot of leaders confuse being a mentor to being a best friend and it gets them in trouble. Barry

I've never seen it. What you say about parents is stupid. As if adults can't act as adults and there is no training or guidience given. I imagine you will come up with all kinds of silly strawmen barriers to keep the parents away, but in the end you just don't like adults watching your program and judging the way you run the troop. Why? So what does a troop of 50 scouts do with the parents after they have driven for four hours? Barry

Thanks Old Ox,but I was there before, during and after the traditions were forced to change. In the old days (ol about pre mid 80s) the Ordeal was kept unofficially secret by its members because it raised the level of its organizations mystic. True, officially it was not secret, but the traditions of keeping the Ordeal agenda a secret as well as change the method of the Call Out (TAP Out) was forced by parents who took offense at the appearance a secret organization. I remember the debate well. I appreciate you reciting the official stand, but the defense, but it doesn't reflect actual history of it's traditions. Which gets back to my point, keeping parents away from the troop program will not be tolerated very long in this day and age. Yes, I have seen the lawyer card raised more than once over similar situations. As I said, if adults can't run a boy run program with 300 ft seperation, then they won't be able to do it with 3 miles, 30 miles or 300 miles either. There is no reason a boy run program can't develop to full maturity with parents on a camp out. Barry

Stosh, you have what, 5 scouts? If a troop can't do boy run with 300 ft separation, then what's the point. Scouts certainly don't know the difference. You have always been anti parents on camp outs since you been here. Yes I find that strange. That is a wrong attitude in this day and age. Just look at OA as the model that had to change when they were accused of being a secrete program. It's impractical to expect a troop to move 50 scouts around with all ASMs. It's even more impractical to say no to parents who want to see the program in action. In fact, it is suspicious. That's a different situation from helicopter parents and adults wanting to play Boy Scouts. If you can't run a boy run program with parents in the area, then maybe you aren't as good as you are always bragging to be. Barry

I'll repeat myself stosh, unit leaders who try to keep parents away from observing the programs usually find themselves being asked to leave. Council doesn't want to risk even the hint of an abusive situation. I would and have given warnings to leaders who had the attitude of keeping parents away. Litigation is knocking at your door. Barry

Thanks Calico As a Cub Scout Leader, I didnt have a lot of respect for Den Chiefs as a result of our experiences with them in the pack. There was no training back then and our Pack simply did not know how to use them. So when I became a Scoutmaster, I neither encouraged nor discouraged scouts to take on the responsibility. However, another adult who came from a different pack experience convinced me that with the proper training, Den Chiefs were quite valuable to dens and packs. She wanted to guide the Den Chief program in our troop. She told me she would insure our scouts and the Den leaders would be trained together to learn of each other expectations. So we got into the business of Den Chiefs. I also felt that first year scouts were too immature for the responsibility, so we waited until the scouts were 12. Anyway, from our experiences, I started to notice that Patrol Leaders with a Den Chief experience were initially much better leaders of their patrol. I observed Patrol Leaders with the Den Chief experience work side by side with PLs who didn’t have the experience and I found that the Den Chief experience gave the boys confidence in dealing with groups as well as individuals for working as a team. Nothing scared them and they had their patrols functioning quickly. After a couple years of watching the advanced leadership skills from scouts with Den Chief experiences, I started encouraging scouts to consider the responsibilities and I took their experiences a lot more seriously in the leadership development. Enough so that I included the value of Den Chiefs in our Council Youth Leadership Development training when I became the Council Youth Leadership Chairman. One of the advantages a Den Chief gets for practicing leadership is he is automatically respected as the dominant scout simply by his age and stature of being a boy scout. New Patrol Leaders often struggle to get footing when they start because they are suddenly leading peers who are older and more experienced or are their best friends. Den Chiefs struggle less encouraging the Cubs to follow direction where as a new Patrol Leader sometimes lack any confidence. By the time a Den Chief gets a Troop POR, he has developed the confidence to lead without the fear of lacking respect of the peers. As stosh says, leading is serving and Den Chiefs learn that rather quickly. Of course there are also the benefits of Den Chiefs bringing in new scouts and all that, but I’m more anal about scout growth and I grew to find the Den Chief experience to be a very good step in a scout’s growth. Barry

The reason 20th Century Wood Badge was created because the old course was taken out of context by unexperienced adults using the format as a model for their own program. Adults who lacked a scouting experience as a youth started guiding their scouts to run a Wood Badge lite troop where the adults ate with the patrols and the Kudu horn was blown at openings. It became enough of a problem that National blew up the old Wood Badge course and started over with a whole new curriculum. This adult is trying to do the same thing. My experience is that this isn’t helicopter parents wanting to hang around and watch and protect their kids, it’s the kid in the adult wanting to play Boy Scout. Most every troop has them, but the leaders are responsible for teaching these adults how boy run program works and why they don’t use some of the ideas that would interfere with the vision of the program. While it is true the role modeling is the primary method for boys to learn and grow in the troop program, the objective is for the "scouts" to be role models for scouts. The troop leadership needs to guide the adults as to how giving boys independence of making choices without the influence of adults creates an environment of growth and trust. A patrol of adults standing next to them doesn’t allow for scouts to feel that independence. I disagree that the troop should discount the parents and keep them away. Units that I’ve seen do that usually end up kicking out a few adults including the Scoutmaster and starting all over. There is fine line between a program that encourages enough distance to give scouts room, and a program that forces parents away from the activities. Council leaders also discourage it because of the abuse risk. And let me just say once parents start to feel suspicious of the troop leadership, threats of litigation aren’t far behind. A better approach is allow the parents to attend the activities, but at a distance the boys don’t feel the pressure of making decisions based on what they think the adults want. It’s really not that hard. 100 feet, 200 feet, even a half mile in some activities. Even at summer camps our troop typically puts the adults in a completely different camp site to give the scouts their distance. It might just be across the road, but it is enough for the scouts to feel independent. Be respectful to this adult, but tell him no thanks and teach him why. Barry