Eagledad

Yes, but it's not so much convincing that is needed as just practice. Boy run is not anymore natural to parents than it is for their sons. Adults need to learn faster than the scouts just so they can figure out how to stay out of the way. Adults must grow so the scouts can grow. Troops that struggle the most with any kind of change are the ones that don't try to change with the maturing performance of the scouts. Sentinel obviously has a vision and the willingness to change for that vision. Well done. Barry

Well I didn't say your troop, I said “this troop†meaning any troop that makes up its own policies over stated organization policies doesn't really need a book that gives policies. And let’s be fair, how many troops let the handbook be the policy guide? VERY few. But making up policy usually is taking power away from the scouts. It's just our nature, when a policy isn't enforced, the guy with the biggest stick will set the policy. Very very rarely is the guy with the biggest stick a scout. Letting scouts make their own decisions from printed policies, processes and procedures gives them power because nobody can take those guidelines away. But an unprinted made up policy can change in the flash of temptation. Most people here know me as a boy run guy. I believe in boy run because it creates the best environment for scout growth. So where is the scout growth in this one example? Well a lot of it is a scout making the choice to not dress by the handbook guidelines just because he starting to think it nerdy (Typical for 13 to 15 years). If that wrong choice is OK, then what else can chose wrongly just because we aren't in the mood? Is he making a right or wrong choice in the big picture? Is he being a good role model for the younger scouts. In life, we will always have to give some to the man, we can't always rebel against policies, guidelines and laws of the community. So what habits do we want our scouts to develop? It is interesting that enabling scouts with the freedom of choice can sometimes turn into the wrestling with a Tiger because freedom allows the beast of temptation to make a wrong choice. Such was the concern of our PLC who absolutely hated the official BSA scout pants of the mid-1990s. No big deal to me, I wasn’t the enforcer, it was their scout handbook. But this was a big enough problem for them that they called a meeting with the SM (me) to solve the problem of changing the troop uniform policy. Again, no big deal to me because the scouts were responsible for enforcing their policies, they could do what they like and I would allow it. However, they knew I would also ask the question of if they were making a right choice. So, we had a lot of dialog about what they liked and didn’t like, what would be official uniform and what wouldn’t be and so on. In the end, they decided to switch to an Olive Drab Army BDU because it was the same color as the BSA official uniform pant, it was adjustable to four sizes. It came in synthetic material, it had huge cargo pockets (not on scout pants at the time). And they were less than half the price. Pretty impressive research, don’t you think? And I was sold, the OD BDU’s were a great replacement for the BSA pants. But there is still that handbook thing with the official BSA pants. So, I came to an agreement with PLC, if Council would accept the BDUs as an acceptable replacement for our troop, I would gladly accept them as well. I of course knew council would not go against national policy, but I was impressed and proud of how the scouts approached making this change. ACCEPT, council did agree with the scouts. I honestly didn't see it coming. I feel that I did my part to help scouts understand the right and wrong of decisions based from BSA guidelines, not Barry's leveraged suggestions. It was never judgmental, but more of enquiring of their thoughts that made them feel the obligation to get it right. The scouts did their part in going through a process that allowed a different choice without the burden of knowing their choice was wrong. It was the weight of just a few words in their Handbook that held them accountable that forced them to seek a acceptably moral result. Other challenges come up now and then, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. Barry

Then I would say the handbook is not required for this troop. The handbook clearly explains to the scouts when, what, and where for wearing a proper uniform. But if the troop is going make up their own policies for wearing the uniform, then why not make up all the program policies? Nobody uses a square not in real life, let’s change that skill to proper use of bungee cords. And hey, two pots require less water for KP, lets change to the two pot method. ​This discussion goes hand in hand with using the SPL and PL Handbook, either we give the scouts the tools to function independently, or we don't. When a troop decides to ignore the handbooks, direction usually comes from the adults 95% of the time. Adults should not be tempted to lecture a scout on proper uniforming, but instead only need to ask the scout if he is following Scouting policy. Adults should be guides of making right decisions, not creators and dictators of program policy. I know, it’s kind of anal, but how are we supposed to encourage young men to develop habits of making right decisions if the decision changes in the moment? Barry

Like most manuals, we only read them when we need to, not when we want to. Do your scouts need to read their handbook to know how and when to wear the uniform in your troop? Barry

Hi Atomic. Positions of Responsibility are not the same as rank. You have the highest responsibility for all the members of your patrol, no matter their rank or job responsibilities outside your patrol. It appears that some of the scouts like your ASPL don't understand each other's duties to their job. I like the idea of approaching the SPL first and then maybe the SM to get a better definition of your responsibilities as well as the ASPL's. The three of you should have a quiet discussion intended to clear up the confusion. If after the meeting the ASPL still insist on disrespecting your leadership, then suggest to him and the SM that he chage patrols. But the most simple answer to your question is to arrange a meeting for the three of you to understand your responsibilities. Barry

If scouts aren't using their handbooks, how are they learning their skills? Barry

OK, in the context of vision, I fully agree. And in truth that is why I was angry with the rule when it was introduced. But I challenge you to find a hand full of scouts that we lost because of the rule. Any SM who would encourage and allow scouts to have those kinds of experiences will find ways to continue doing those experiences within the intent of the rule. I know this because that is how our troop works. But let me also add, it’s not just about a culture of adults wanting to be more protective. In the name of keeping up with cultural progression that so many here believe is important, the BSA is also putting themselves in situations that can’t allow the independence many of us think is precious for the scouting program. While I have no trouble with allowing my 12 year old son and his patrol to go on a campout without adults, there is no way I would allow my 12 year old daughter to go on that same campout with male patrol mates. I know we don’t allow girls at this level of scouting, but there are a lot of adults that think that is the next step for the BSA. Barry

Adults only need to be present for "overnight" activities. And it really isn't hard to give scouts their independence on overnight activities and stay within the intent of the rule. Has anyone tried the 300 foot separation? It might as well be three miles as far as most scouts care. While I hate the rule, it's more because it just shows where our culture is changing. It didn't interrupt very many troop programs. Barry

When I was given the title of Council JLT Chairman, one of the first task we took on was to rewrite (or write-in) references from Patrol Leaders Handbooks and SPL Handbooks in the BSA published youth leadership training syllabuses of that time. It gave give the JLT syllabuses integrity and a link for the scouts to use the handbooks as practical tools their program. As far as I know, we were the only council in the county to do so. 20 years later I am still astounded that the BSA doesn’t encourage the use of these handbooks in their youth and adult course as well as in unit activities. The forum is a wonderful resource of information, but there is also a barrage of ignorance and narcissism that clouds the simplicity of dialoged on this forum. I generally do all my own maintenance on cars, motorcycles, lawn equipment and so on, and when a “how to fix…†question is asked in those specific forums, the answer is usually, “start with manual and then…..â€Â. So why are questions specific to the Troop program not approached in the same manner? Why does National not encourage handbooks to basic common how-to questions? I challenge any of the adults on this forum to read those handbooks and find what is lacking for a group of scouts to use with minimal guidance to have a positive scouting experience. It has been discussed before that only around 25% (give or take) of BSA troop level volunteers today had a scouting experience as a youth. That behooves a national program like the BSA to encourage a simplistic guide where both the scouts and adults have the same expectations of the Troop program. In a boy run program, the adults don’t have to be the only members of the program that have a clue. Imagine if references to the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook started the replies to questions asked on this forum, there would be a lot less debate and self-posturing for providing ideas and solutions to common situations. Of course experience can always enhance performance to the basic guidelines of handbooks, but printed guidelines in any organization provide a common starting place and consistency to insure confidence of the subject. I am thankful that National is still publishing the PLHB and SPLHB because they help me so much in how I work with the youth and adults, but I wonder why they even bothers since they don’t encourage a reference to them. They are a great way to bring the adults and scout to one mind in working the program. Barry

I've suggested many times over the years in this forum that Troops purchase the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook for their scouts and adults. When I was the District Scoutmaster Specific teacher, I personally gave all the Scoutmasters a copy of each book. There is very little missing from those two handbooks that a Scoutmaster needs for developing a quality boy run program. The best part about them is they can both be read in an hour. The SM Handbook is the best sleeping pill money can buy. Barry

Wow, this is almost identical to what I taught to Troop leaders during our Council Junior Leadership Training Course and Council Adult Leadership Courses. It is well laid out and basically supports what most experienced boy run leaders on this forum suggest. And excellent resource and checklist for a troop trying to become more boy run and patrol method. Thanks Sentinel. Barry

Interestingly, my highest priority of concern is the PL leaving all the food in the church meeting room floor without making sure it was taken care of. Maybe I didn't understand CNY correctly, but it sounds like the food was just left on the floor for church to figure out. That wouldn't go over very well in our church and it certainly is not showing good servant leadership at the patrol, troop and community levels.

Without getting into quoting the Committee Handbook, the committee’s only proactive responsibility is to provide a Scoutmaster who believes in the Troop vision and builds a program toward that vision. All other committee actions are reactive to the Scoutmaster's program. I’m a little uncomfortable with your troop because it appears your committee is very proactive toward the process of reaching the vision and I don't see where your SM even fits in your program. Take it from someone who used to have the responsibility of fixing broken units, “a program cannot serve two mastersâ€Â. I think your unit adults need training to understand each others roles better. If you were in our district, I would request the District Trainer give the Scoutmaster Specific and Committee Specific courses to your unit requesting all the volunteers to attend. Then I would ask the group to sit down and define the program vision and the specific responsibilities in the process for reaching that vision. Barry

You have some basic problems like not building a process for the vision. Another is the flaw of assuming that scouts will figure it out even without resources for a solution. As the program matures, the scouts gain enough experience to move the program, but it is difficult without any experience. Some support is needed to get momentum going. During our annual planning, all patrols are expected to provide equal input for ideas. That included the adults. Adults have a lot of experience and to ignore them is not doing justice for the program. Resources, scouts need to learn adults are great resources. Also, there is a saying "train for success, prepare for failure". For programs to mature to the next level, there is usually some kind of skills development required to move beyound the present level if for no other reason than building some confidience. Leading a planning session is not easy for adults, much less kids. But adults usually aquired some skills in their lifetime to lead successful meetings, where as the boys have not yet had such experiences. Are they getting any kind of training for leading meetings or are they just told to get in there and get it done. Even the SPL handbook has some guidelines to running a meeting. Train for success is not anti boy run, it is life. I usually tested my scouts on how much was being expected of them by asking them if they were having fun. If it wasn't fun, then I demanded we change. Scouting has got to be fun, all of it. Barry

I have never seen a full free time campout go well because the boys simply get bored. Sometimes the Patrols try it and wish they had planned something. But then our campouts aren't advancement sessions either, they are usually doing something a lot of fun that has them wanting to be in the sack after campfire. Thats not to say they don't have free time, I believe campouts should be at least 50% free time. If a scout wants to work on skills for advancement, that would be the time. Barry

Yes, these moms can be a challenge. One of our Den Leader moms caused so much trouble that we restricted her from troop activities. She was extreme and scary, but most moms are kind and just well meaning. We had one mom that love the idea of boy run and what her son was accomplishing from the program. But she was a classic helicopter mom and was always calling me. I give here credit, she knew to always asked me first instead of reacting to her instincts and she always followed my directions. She admitted her hovering problem and was always kind and opologetic. When he was 17, her son asked me to present and pin his Eagle at his ECOH. I told the family that was a tradition for the dad, but they insisted. I don't know who was honoring me more, mom or her son. Now that I understand there are younger scouts involved, the situation is much more complex. You seem to have a handle on it dfscott. Barry

Ah! I see. I was thinking this was a patrol of just older scouts, my bad. Barry

Well I have to admit there is something wrong here, the parents of older scouts should know by now to let the troop handle this situation. These aren't boys anymore, these guys are adults acting like boys. And I have to agree with stosh, it appears the adults are treating them like boys as well. The parents should be disappointed in their sons and want them to learn a lesson here. Barry

I don't know what it is about older scout patrols that pull this stuff, but they are at the age where it's not your concern. If they are going to learn from it, you need to just wait it out and let them come to you, or whatever they do. Like MattR said, we take a little extra for just such learning experiences. Barry

Why can't your younger scouts go on high adventure with the older scouts like in our troop? You keep presenting mixed age patrols as if they don't work. They have been working very well for over a hundred years. Same age patrols came as a result of Webelos crossing over in groups. The BSA only started that about 30 years ago. The only way same age patrol can mature is with outside patrol influence as you showed in your examples of summer camp. Growth comes from the more experienced members in mixed age patrols. It's pretty simple. All the scouts in the same age patrol have the same experience, more importantly, lack of experience. So growth generallycomes from outside the patrol in a more instructional teaching style. Growth in mixed age comes more by observing, which is less intrusive to the scouting experience. This is not to say there isn't a place for same age patrols. Your troop of first year scouts is an example of no choice in styles. Your scouts are forced to seek outside instruction for them to grow as your summer camp post proved. There are also times when NSPs function better as same age as well. But most unknowingly controlling adult also favor same age patrols because it keeps them closer to the scouts and their activities. Same age allows them influence their activities with their instruction and reflections. Most Eagle mills are same age patrols for this very reason. Control.

We started using a method I learned from another Scouter who taught me a lot about boy run scouting to use what we call adventure crews. Now he actually does use Venture Crews in his troop, but we discussed a way of using his method without our troop needing to start a crew. The way it works is that any scout or adult can start an adventure patrol for the purpose of doing a single activity. Once the activity is through, the crew dissolves. This is how we organize our High Adventure Crews, but adventure patrols can be used for anything. We had one scout organize a crew to do a service project for a nursing home. We had another one for spending a weekend at Six flags. There are no age requirements other than the restrictions set by the BSA like a Philmont crew, so most of our crews are mixed age with all ages. There must be scout crew leader and he must present to the committee a description of the activity with a list of adults who will be part of the crew. We found that getting adults first separates dreamers from those who will actually move forward with the activity. Scouts stay in the regular patrols and must have crew meetings outside their patrol activities. Works very well and we averaged about four crews a year when I was SM. I’m not sure how many they average now. As for OA, our troop had the most active scouts of any troop in the OA. I’m not sure why because I didn’t push it at all. But I can say our most active older scout leadership generally were the active scouts in OA. My last SPL was at the same time in some leadership on a Venturing Crew and also in OA all at the same time. And to top that off, he planned a week long back packing trip for his crew in Montana, which had always been a dream of his. He was an amazing scout, but I shouldn’t have been surprised, he went to MIT the next year on a full scholarship.

Been there and done that with my younger son. He didn't go for the Eagle and I supported him with his decision, but it wasn't without the struggles you are experiencing now. All I can say is that I can look myself in the mirror today because my now 26 year old son still looks back at his scouting experience with great fondness and has zero regrets with his choice of earning the Eagle. Barry