Eagledad

So, I think you are only thinking in the perspective of sexual abuse. But, there are many actions in the outdoors that motivate litigation. Are we only talking about sex abuse here? That would be easy. But, I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we are talking about all litigations at units. Barry

Anything. One parent threatened litigation because their son heard an adult use a cuss word. I know the parent wouldn't have gone through the effort, but that was how he motivated the troop to take some kind of action. Another parent threatened litigation because the SM didn't tell them that their son was caught with a Playboy magazine on a campout several months previous. That threat came after a meeting with the parents over their son threatening another scout with his pocket knife. The learning disabled scout has a lot of social issues that was creating a lot of concerns, so we asked one parent to attend meetings and campout to help us with their son. The parents use the troop as break from their son and did not want to attend meetings. Threating litigation was how ended the discussion with a "no". Ask a DE for examples, they have many. My point is that quality of the CO or unit isn't really a factor if National is giving up their support of helping all units with litigation. No matter how the issue lays out in the end, I think the question is what is the added cost for a family to put their kids in scouting. Barry

I’m skeptic; maybe the Effigy Moundbuiders also had Boy Scouts.😎 Barry

I'm a ;little confused on this. Whether the CO works closely with the unit or not, the litigation risks are the same. It just takes one disgruntled parent who wants their pound of flesh. Oh, I know a consensus CO will reduce the risk, but we had several parents pull the litigation card to get their way. So, is the real discussion here about the BSA shifting the cost of litigation insurance on to the unit? Anyone have an idea of that cost? Barry On a side note, I am not surprised that quazse's and Matts unit CO's work well with the unit, I found that good unit drive the CO's to work close with them. Not saying they weren't good CO's anyways, but good units can drive good relationships.

This is how we did it 20 years ago. I don't know how strict things are now, but often the single parent mother would provide a note giving the Cub leader or another parent trust and responsibility of her son on campouts. Barry

I agree. My experience is that older scouts most of the time feel camping is relief from the stress of romantic relationships.. It's more often the younger scouts who have these discussions of curiosity and discovery. My wife had the same experience with younger girls. I belief the discussions are innocent and normal. But, they are alerting to parents, of which most leaders are. Anyone ever wonder how scouts think that tents are sound proof. Not that older scouts don't have the discussions. Even though older scouts have admitted to me personally of the relief of not thinking about girls, I have heard those discussions from them. But, they are less explicit about sex and more about comparing girls to other girls. Again, innocent and normal. But, to this discussion. parents take these things to the extreme like reporting the actions as harmful and predatory. That seems almost unbelievable, but parents will use whatever it takes to protect their kids. We had several parents over the years threaten litigation just to get their way in lesser situations. That was 25 years ago. I can't even imagine what the atmosphere is like today with gay and transgender's rights. Add girls in the mix. It's not so much about sex, I think youth today feel they have more power to get their way. In the scouting program, "getting your way" conflicts with the learning that comes from the humility of making a bad decision. To be mentored requires a willingness to change. Then you read here of the idealistic dream of Zero Tolerance from adults who have never had to deal with parents that insist their kids are being abused from the other kids who talk of sex, curse and are of a different religion. I can't even imagine being a Scoutmaster today. It's not the scouts that scare me, it's their parents. Barry

I can see you don't have the experience of dealing with parents. Logical reasoning isn't always how it works. And, there is hiarchy of units, COs, districts, and councils. Who should drive this cart? Barry

The struggle here is dealing with parents that insist that one scout showing another scout porn is CSA. Those usually end up on the CSA list. Now what? Barry

How do you define scout to scout sex abuse?. Barry

That SE is only doing what you are demanding here on the forum. Can you imagine the harm she could have created because of her Zero tolerance position. More often than not, Zero tolerance allows folks who don't want to deal with individual incidents because they don't have the skills and it scares them. Barry

One of my examples was my wife found two girl scouts (10 years old) having a heavy consensual discussion of sex. She was advised by the leadership to call the police. In your Zero tolerance world, who is in trouble? Don't say that doesn't count, she was advised by their Scout Executive equivalent to call the police. Somebodies life is going to change when the police are called. Who do you want it to be? Barry

This is taken out of context. What formal education are you talking about that other youth organizations do in the context of which you are referring? Certainly not other scouting organizations. I could go on with 4H, youth sports, and other school activities, of which my kids had plenty of experience, and none who got abuse training of any kind. What other youth organizations are doing the training? Just because Scouting uses youth leadership as the method toward moral and ethical growth doesn't mean scouting assumes youth can lead. Most other youth programs don't even use the leadership experience as a process for growth. But, most scouting programs have a process for developing maturity so scouts can eventually lead. While I believe that scouts under the age 14 shouldn't be given serious leadership responsibilities, it's not because they aren't trained. If anything, Troops tend to over train them to the point that the training has little influence on their experience. But, even at that, most troop leaders watch their youth pretty closely so they can measure their performance to guide improvement. I can't imagine how an adult leader, much less a youth leader could mitigate your bathroom sex example. One thing about the sex drive, if there is a will, there is a way. Barry

No games. Just facts that trump personal experience. Barry

When emotional reason doesn't fix minds, resort to denigrating. Shesh. Barry

And you seem to be maximizing a broad statement without knowing the context. Based on our separate experiences, we will different opinions. . Barry

I gave an example of such a discussion report to council.

Very narrow and challenging. Challenging enough to drive my wife to quit and take my daughter out the GSUSA. More often than not, BSA parents don't take this stuff very well. I find that discussions with older scouts is very productive when they don't feel challenged. They don't want any of the scouts to be categorized as a pervert or predictor. They just need some guidelance sometimes as to where the line is drawn. Barry

I'm saying the broad statement without detail doesn't make sense.

My experienced opinion is that the 50% youth sex abuse statement doesn't make sense. And any suggestion to changing the program based on that statement is absurd.. Barry

Patrol Method has proven itself over 100 years all over the world. To break that up because of a very broad blanket statement that that 50% of the BSA abuse cases are from youth would be ridiculous. Barry

Data. Proof. It's not minimalizing, it's rationalizing. To my families frustration, I'm a black and white person. Some of us have many years experience at many levels of scouting. Broad statements that don't make sense against experience requires details before tearing apart a proven program just to appease cynics. Barry

That is why the knee jerk Zero Tolerance of youth sex abuse reaction from the poster yesterday is so concerning. Dividing the age groups doesn't approach fixing the problem, and how do we keep friends having curious private discussions alone in their tents? Discussion is getting a little crazy. Barry

An older scout tenting with a younger scout would be a red flag that would require further discussion, not so much because of a predatory behavior, but because it is so rare, something isn't normal. 99.9 percent of scouts tent with their friends. I certainly would have the discussion. Barry

The youth numbers could use some specifics also. We had mother/leader overhear a tent of scouts talking about sex. She filed on that. We investigated and found the tent had four scouts the same age who had all been close friends (her son was one of them) since Tigers. It was nothing more than curious sex talk. Mom felt here son was a victim. Not to say that youth sex abuse doesn't happen, we have had a couple of pretty bad scandal's of youth sex abuse in our state high schools, partially in sports.. But, I have also heard some edgy discussions from tents full of scouts on high adventure trips where we are forced to set up tents next to each other. Interestingly my wife had the same experience with girls in the the GSUSA. Innocent in the nature of the situation, but eye opening for parents/adults. My wife asked if there was anything she was supposed to do, and the leadership told her to call the police. Really? She didn't But, I can certainly see why there might appear to be so many sex abuse claims without further investigation. That's the problem I have had with this whole thing. I was accused in other posts of not having any experience with the data being used here. True, nobody here does. But i have experience with situations that were filed under the category of abuse that wouldn't come under the sex abuse most folks are thinking in these discussions. I would really like to know the real numbers. Barry

Then you really don't know. The future of Youth spending the night with other youth is going to be politically incorrect. And, anyone who was a scout should be shunned for being an abuser. Barry