Eagledad

Approval is rare, so it likely hasn't been approved in your council. I'll give you an actual situation: Council with a weak OA program takes over a Council with a strong OA program. A few troops were not happy, so they asked to be moved to another Council that was actually closer. Requests were denied. Ask your friend how often these request come up. Even more interesting are the reasons they ask. Barry

Requesting a change of district or council happens a lot more than most realize because people are fickle and come up with all kinds of reasons to change. These request are rarely approved, but it does depend on the circumstances. Barry

Maybe it's our area, but I have never seen what many call Troop method around here. But I've noticed that with some folks on this forum, troop method is anything that appears adult run. In my opinion, same age patrols are by nature more adult run, but I would never call them troop method. Barry

I'll agree with that. A few years ago I met someone who was close to many of the pros at national and his take on what they were trying to do was go full a head on age based patrols as well as split the troop at age 14. The introduction of NSP, Troop Guides and 1st Class in 1 year was the beginings of that goal. Along with that, folks just don't realize what allowing women leaders into the program has done to it. Ignoring the political correctness aspects of it, women forced a huge dynamic shift just from lack of scouting experience as a youth. All the changes in training introduced in 2000 were a result of that dynamic shift. I feel that National's goal of that time has been interrupted because the troop split was put on the back burner, but I honestly don't know where National wants to go in the future. I think the murkiness you describe is partically on purpose and I don't feel that that National has the best intentions for the BSA vision and mission. I think progressives have a lot of influence and it just a matter of time before the resistance from the old timers will fade enough for them to change the program into an after school program like the YMCA. Of course that is just my conspiracy theory based from watching the changes over the years. But, I've said several times that less than 25% of adults joining the program today have a scouting experience. The time is not so far away of when there aren't any scouters who remember the true patrol method program. The numbers are working against us, so it is inevitable that the foundational drive for the program will come from this culture, not the last. Barry

Ya, there's no bias in that post. Shesh

I think the question would be a little easier if the people who express themselves were held accountible to the laws. We have laws against damaging property and more importantly, injuring and killing individuals. Let's start with those abuses of freedoms, then maybe the question of expression etiquette will be a little more clear. Barry

I guess we have different ideas of optional because the BSA doesn't allow any options for 1. or 2. My point all along is that if you can't find BSA support for what you are telling others to do, likely you are off the reservation and possbily leading others to fail. Barry

This statement reminds me of a scoutmaster on this forum that once said SPLs are only used by Scoutmasters to maintain control of the patrols. It is narrow minded thinking that turns off open minded seekers. It seems that many of us are in more of a hurry to define bad scouting practices than explaining how to develop good scouting. Even more we seem to commit to defining all programs into single hypothetical examples. I admit that I'm a little impatient with theories being supported by scary hypothetical examples. SPL is the focus in this discussion, but I've seen the Eagle abused just as badly in this forum. It seems there is a lot of opinions for what a scout has to accomplish to earn an Eagle, much less be respected as an one. And yet, what does the BSA have to say on the subject. I used to be really critical of National of how they guided adults in training and manuals, but Looking back from my experience of working with hundreds of scouters, the BSA actually does a pretty good job of allowing "options" while still giving a solid frame work to start. I still have issues with them, but watching the new generation of adults coming into the program, I have a respect for present and coming challenge. I say all this because I think this forum does a lousy job helping scouters improve their program. It used to be one of the best. But we as a whole now come off arrogant and hostile. Arrogant in that we think we the smartest person in the room, and hostile in that we are condescending to those that don't seem to agree with us. A couple folks here seem to even take pride in attacking members for even being part of the group. Heaven help a parent ignorant to scouting seeking some guidiance. We have driven off those who really need the help and limited the ideas to only those willing to stand against criticism. We are eating our own and will eventually have nothing left. The membership numbers show it. Barry

I fully agree, but they still had an experience that trumps most adults today. 50% of new leaders (give or take) are women. And, I have found that more than 50% of men coming in today had very little if any scouting experience (at least in our area). These adults are the future of the BSA scouting program. And as I said earlier, when we start telling these adults to not use the program given to them and instead follow ONE scouter's unusual approach to working with their sons in the woods, well the advice can have the wrong effect. If we really care for the future of the program, we have to accept the program that it is and not be so prideful that our style or "options" make or break the program. Integrity comes from humility of experience, not pride of protecting personal ideals. Barry

Thanks, TAHAWK, your are kind of making my point that the BSA does give guidelines to how the program runs. If you haven't seen and haven't seen any post lately about poster who don't like the SPL, you aren't reading enough. But I think it is the everything is optional that I really like. There are some here that have a my-way-or-highway approach and that is the problem. When I was asked to start teaching adults, a very wise scouter sat me down and told me that expressing personal opinions the defy the material that is being lowers the integrity of the teacher, not the program. I am known as the boy run patrol method guru in our council, but this guy knew that passion would drive more people away than convert. Adding additional information and philosphy that compliments the course material goes a lot farther than saying that using an SPL makes your program troop-method. That is a silly statement biased on limited ideals. It certainly isn't the "everything is optional" way of mind. Barry

Based on whose definition of leadership qualities? Not every scout is going to agree on leadership qualities and they certainly aren't going to agree with the SM. Who is going to teach what? Barry

My apologies, I was pulled away. The problem with many of our opinions is that they don't really explain what we want to achieve or why one style or method is prefered over another. AND most of the time we prefer what works best for us personality, not what works best for everyone. For example, I know that I can build a very successful troop using the SPL position. The position isn't evil or destructive and doesn't make a troop less boy run or less patrol method. SPL also doesn't make a program more troop method, UNLESS the position is guided that way by the adults. See part of the problem here is that many think that Boy Scouts is a boys program to let them do what they want. In fact it has always been and adult program use to guide boys in their growth toward being adults. From the very day Baden Powell started the boys scouts, there was an adult driven objective to what a boy was to get from his experience. Even the most radical suggestions of patrol method and boy run given on this forum are adult driven. So I read these post and wonder how in the world are we to take adults totally ignorant to scouting and camping and show them what they are supposed to be doing, and more importantly, why. Sadly I've also come to take the articles in Scouter magazine with a grain of salt because they have gotten more directive and bias without much balance in there substance. Troop method vs Patrol method, age based patrols vs, mixed age patrols, First Class in one year, Eagle Requirements, all these things are based on perspectives of scouting experience, life experiences, and philosphical approaches to life. National has an advantage because it is in control of what it publishes to ALL its leaders. However, we in the trenches have some power through personal communication like forums and local scouter functions. Of course there are as many opinions of how to run a scout program as there are personalities. But I have noticed in the last few years that the opinions are appear more radical and extreme, and the new adults today have less experienced to judge the differences of those opinions. So, they are ignoring those opinions. One example is when I started on scouter.com way back when, we average over 800 participants at any one time. Now there how many dozen. I used to teach in my Scoutmaster course to use Scouter.com as a tool for new ideas, but lately I've been told members here are out of touch and don't understand todays program. Hmm, after reading about the evils of using the SPL, maybe they are right. Is your advice really practical with todays average new leader? I know National has lost touch, but if those of us who have worked with hundreds or thousands of scouts can't help these folks, what hope is there for scouting in the future? We need to rethink our approach. Barry

LOL, only a few weeks ago you were praising Scouting magazine because it was promoting a style that you favor, same age patrols. That article also had a one-side bias bent, but it was a great resource then. Clearly for me that National has lost touch with the practical approaches to the Scouting program, but I don't see hope in the BSA future because even the opinions here come off as extreme. The majority of new scout leaders joining today don't have a youth scouting experience or much outdoors camping experience and you guys expect them to trust your fanatical opinions, why? Seems we have lost the objective of scouting for each individual boy as well as the motivation for being a Scout in the first place. Barry

It’s not ego or pride, it’s the natural instinct of competing and it is part of most of us. We can either use this activity and other activities like it to prepare and teach our sons how to control their desires by practicing acts of discipline, or we can teach that competition is bad and make it a taboo. Human nature is very strong, we can either work with it or struggle against it. I look at this cub activity as an opportunity for the family to work together. So when adults create rules intended to separate the parents from their son, it removes that opportunity. While it is true that competition can lead to adults behaving badly, it is also the opportunity for developing boys to practice the character trait of fairness. In fact this is the ideal age to learn that behavior. There are many simple ways to keep the competition fair, but the main objective is not to take competition out of the equation. Instead make it manageable at a boy level so the scouts get a chance to practice self-control at their level of maturity. One way to keep competition fair for young boys is by keeping the rules simple so that the limits are easily recognized. And there are many ways to do this without watering down the competition itself like allowing only the parts in the kit. We use parents and grandparents of scouts as judges. You would think by the trend of this discussion that none of the parents are capable of fair competition. Truth is that only a few loose themselves in this competition. The rest want the boys to have their day. As for how to deal with those heavy handed adults, we have a pinewood derby committee who enforce the rules. These are usually the more enthusiastic dads who work and bring balance by working together and they do a pretty good job of dealing emotional participants. One other thing we do that really helps keep the event fair is do the pre check-in the day before the competition. That gives the committee a day to make sure all the cars are fair, and more importantly a day to fix the cars. The committee members are usually dads who know their way around pinewood derby cars and tools, so they can pretty much fix anything. While this discussion is about the aggressive parents with super modified cars, truth is most cars need a little help getting up to a fair competition setup because their parents didn’t have the skills build a fair running car. If you want to see the best of mans nature, just watch these men in action. Competition is part of life, so the skills of behavior to be fair competitors should be learned and practiced during the developing years of youth. I am not a fan of no-winner activities nor am I of handing trophies to all participants. Life isn’t nearly as compassionate and self-control can only be learned when we are challenged to lose it. I would say that this is one of our packs favorite activities. We have races for the scouts, the family members and an open class. We provide a meal deal of hot dogs, chips and a drink for a bargain price and we do a lot of cheers and chanting. It has become a great family Friday night activity. We try to keep the event under an hour and a half, so we set up two tracks to run all the races. Barry

Kind of funny, but I knew it was time when I dreaded answering the phone. As you all know, I love talking about scouting, so it was time for a break. Barry

LOL;) Barry

I agree with using the SPL Handbook. It's a good starting place for the SPL expectations and it is in print for both the scouts and adults to learn. The balance between adults and scouts is both groups understanding the goals and expectations of each other. The handbooks actually do a pretty good job of spelling all that out. SPL duties are pretty basic, leaving the PLs to do more of the heavy lifting. It takes practice for both the scouts and adults to understand how to do this scouting stuff, so starting with a common understanding helps a lot. Barry

Oh sure, we agree. I was just kind of thinking out loud of the challenges with modern technology migrating into everything. When I was SM, I encouraged (kind of lectured) the scouts to always keep their books nearby for no other reason than it is a good tool for reference. I’m sure at least 25% of the scouts lost one or more copies while in the troop. However, I can see where a scout would be more motivated to keep a Scout Handbook with him at all times if it were a digital copy in his cell phone. And with the Cloud, the records would be permanent. Hmm, interesting question to ponder. Barry

It is interesting to watch how technology is changing our behavior patterns. I work in the aviation industry and the type of training and how it is being applied in the industry has changed a lot in the last 20 years just as a result of computer technology. The forum has discussed in the past the idea of giving the Scout and Merit Badge Counselor total autonomy over the completion of the MB requirements simply by logging into the scouting computer data system. The result would take the MB part of the program totally out of the hands of the troop. I actually kind of like that idea. Last week there was a discussion asking if scouts even need handbooks anymore. Well I guess they need them for logging their advancement at the very least, but what if they could do that from their cell phone. Leaders today certainly have different issues to deal with than we had just 15 years ago. LOL Barry

When the time comes, ask your DE to spread the word to other DE's and District CCs in the council that you are looking for a slot. Most crews are created at least a year before the date and losing a crew member is normal. Your question is pretty basic and doesn't take into consideration the minimum reqirements like age and maturity for joining the crew. Barry

Yes, it is only a Method. LOL! Barry

It seems like what you are really asking is: “What are the CC and SM’s responsibilities?â€Â. That the question is being asked does suggest a lack of some training on the adults part. The simple quick answer is sit down together with that cup of coffee, as was suggested, and figure out what the responsibilities are for the CC and the SM. You can even cheat and use the handbooks. But in the bigger picture you are going to have to figure out a way of working the CC to get this stuff sorted out because differences in expectations happen a lot. And it’s not just with the CC, there will always be that one adult who isn’t following the SM’s expectations. So working with the CC now is good practice for future discussions with ASMs, Committee members and parents. It’s not a fun part of the SM job, but it is important. Barry

It's all part of the process LeCastor, all part of the process. It is very rare that the whole unit decides to up and change. These things usually start from a visionary with skills of an Alaskan refrigerator salesman. Every troop is boy run, but only about 5% are "Boy Run". Barry