Eagledad

Yes, I think you are supporting others in that there does seem to be a need to protect the integrity of the MB process from those with a self-serving ambition. Every summer camp the desires of what parents want for their son comes out in full force. I remember one mother chewing me out during a committee meeting telling me how bad a leader I was for allowing her son to came home the previous year with Zero badge. Her 11 year old son skipped all his classes and had the best time of his life at that camp. The only way I could see this working in a program without the blue cards is creating "more training" to teach the scouts and adults of how the process should work. It also means the counselor would need to take on a lot more responsibility in evaluating whether the scout should be taking the course and deal with the pushy parents. I'm not sure they would be willing to take on those additional responsibilities. Actually I know they wouldn't. Barry

We are remarkably similar because we are decent loving people whose daily actions resemble the scout law. I can only guess why we are mindbogglingly different. I am a big picture sort of person and we tend to be more pragmatic in are thinking. We appear more black and white, but in reality, it's just coloring within the lines. Adults used to be surprised that I could predict the performance of their unit programs. What they couldn't see is that scouting while complex in its managing, is fairly simple in its design. I try to teach adults the simple basics of scouting here on the forum and in my area, but these basics are so simple that folks don't really believe they have that much application. So as a big picture guy in this discussion, I can see how morality and ethics get's corrupted when folks take credit for being the best source of living by the scout law and oath. While that does have the appearance of respect, in reality it opens the door to chaos eventually leading corruption. How can a boy equate living the law when his role models consistently lie, cheat, and steal? I'm thinking hypothetically in the big picture of course. The only way the BSA as a National institution for youth can even propose the idea of encouraging boys into ethical moral decision makers is to put the responsibility of those ideals on a resource that never changes it's virtues of morality. That can only be God. You don't have to be religious to understand the importance of pinning to a source that doesn't change with fickle cultures. So, it is just plain logical to hang the values of the scouting program on God. And you don't have to be a genus to see what happens when God is taken out of the program. Morality (law and oath) becomes defined by the man with the biggest stick. What's left dilutes over time and eventually becomes just meaningless words. A lot of the replies to this discussion are something to the order that if the other is guy acts moral and ethical, that is all the scouts need. True enough I guess in the small picture, but in the bigger picture, our standards of what is acceptable has to be based on perfection so that we always keep raising the bar. We can always do better and here is our target. I know through the years scouting has had to deal with really bad leaders that embarrassed the program. But the program survived without really taking any hits. That is attributed to the reputation that Scouting teaches boys how to be men of character. And if anyone is held to define the attributes of character, they will quickly lead up to God. If Scouting had started out without God to set the high standards, it would not have survived past those bad leaders because there would not have been anything to show folks that the program was better than the self-serving desires of those men. So yes, people can be nice by their nature and set good examples of living the scout oath and law simply by the luck of the draw. But the program only survives because it acknowledges a source of moral perfection that can never be changed even with new leaders year after year. Once the BSA starts giving the credit of good moral behavior to man, the program is over because it will no longer be above scrutiny. Barry

Yes, but the discussion is whether the SM should have to provide a signature in the process. And as a side, the PL isn't given any of this responsibility in the BSA guidelines. Even you said: "MB's are designed as individual advancement opportunities, not as patrol or troop activities.". Barry

Having a bad day are ya stosh? Barry

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Barry

I'm not sure what you are afraid you will start, but the Bible prophecies this several times. The Law and Oath are the BSA's attempt to prevent it. Barry

Yes, but you admitted there was nothing you could really do as the SM. Now in truth, I have had the same experience, so I always advised scouts away from the counselor. But, what if the scout could rate and provide comments on an electronic list. I have little respect MBC (Merit Badge Colleges) because they typically skip much of the MB process and encourage sub par performance on all sides. Many of the bad habits the units had developed for signoffs and proper administering was caused by them following MBC procedures. Barry

I'm a sure you are fine folks, but the problem with mad made morality is that it can change in a flash, and often does depending on the mood of the moment. In the bigger picture, the poor suffer the most in cultures with man made morals because there is no "one" agreed reference to hold their leaders to be fair and just when it is not convenient for the leaders. As I've said before, in a godless society, morality is dictated by the guy with the biggest stick and motivated only by emotion and ambition. The 10 Commandments are basically just saying who has the big stick and protecting the innocent. Barry

You lost me, what is the reason a signature is required to get the scout a list or discuss the scouts experience? The list can be on the internet and the SM does have the tool of a SM conference. I'm just playing devils advocate to force us outside the box. Honestly I'm in a weird place here because I was making the same arguments in the original discussion. Barry

Just because the BSA is being gracious in accommodating your belief, they are not stating that was the intent during the origination of the program. Otherwise none of it would have any pretense to a foundation of building character. Barry

LOL, we will have to agree to disagree. Barry

National does seem to stumble a bit trying to dodge litigation from the hard answers. But the Oath, Law, Mission and Vision statements, are still the key framework to program's values and God is right in the middle. I don't seen any outcry to change any of that. Atheism just doesn't make sense or fit in the present BSA values framework. Barry

Personal attack? Scoutmasters refuse to sign because they either didn't agree the scout did the work or they didn't approve of the counselors interpretation of the requirements. Our council only requires the signature at the begining of the process. After that, it is out of our hands, so we have it better than the blue card. I like the first signature because it gives us the opportunity to guide the scout in filling out the card and helping contact the counselor. Most people don't realize that the vast majority of 11 year old boys have never contacted a stranger for the purpose of making arrangements for working together. It is very intimidating. However, I could figure out a way of continuing such guidance without the signature. Barry

You have only pointed out that National doesn't go into details, It is the elephant in the room Merlyn. Why would it be worth going through all this hassle otherwise? Barry

Based from what? Your own values? Where did you get your values that you can judge someone else's interpretation of good ethical and moral behaviors? When two scoutmasters disagree, where could a scout go to find the true answer? God is the only consistent unchanging source of ethical behavior. God is all that holds the law and oath valid in the definition of character that defines the scouting program. So if you want to brush off a scouts experience of god to a rock, fine, that makes it easy for you. But when he comes to a true moral decision, did you really help him become better than he was? Barry

God is not in the program for personal reflection. Reflection is the place to find God, but not justify His purpose. God is in the program to anchor morality and ethics. As for some of the atheist permitted to earn Eagle, well I'll let National fall over themselves trying to justify their spirituality. But remember, the BSA has already one the suit against them to allow atheist. So even National draws a line. The problem for atheist is when the question is asked of the source of morality, man is not a good answer. Barry

It seems that after all the bragging, defending, posturing and preaching, the place where the rest of us are sitting on this "what-if" question has been found. Adding that SM's holding up MBs is pretty common nationally and is brought up often on this forum, removing unit responsibility from the MB process might be worth an intellectual discussion. Barry

Ah, and that is everyone's solution to what? Anybody read the BSA Vision and Mission Statements lately. How in the world can and organization base itself on teaching boys the values that guide morality and ethics without God, or some made up god? It seems the answer to my question of do you want to allow atheist to be eagles is a resounding yes. But you want to do it by suggesting atheism is a religion? Where do they get their morality? Pretty insulting to folks who take worshiping God seriously. Personally I don't see National going that direction because what is the point of a moral values program when god is just made up for the convenience of going camping and getting some badges. I think that will create a greater exodus than adding a requirement to ask the scout about God. I had several scouts of atheist parents in our program. They were very up front that they wanted their son to make his own choice based on observing believers. They knew that Duty to God and Reverence was a part of the program. Watering down god to nothing is an insult to them. I'm not suggesting every scout has to worship my God, but to make up spirituality and gods to pacify a few people who struggle with Duty to God is not going to fix the problem in the long run. Either scouting is a values program, or it's not. Right now it is a values program. Barry

Maybe it's out of date, but it is basically the document we referenced for our counselor training. http://www.scouting.org/Home/GuideToAdvancement/TheMeritBadgeProgram.aspx The first 10 paragraphs is over the part we are discussing. Barry

I guess I must ask the right question because that the second time with no answer. My grandpa used to say, lets just shuck this down to the cob, shall we. Did I reach the cob? Barry

Notifications purposes only? And what if the SM refuses to sign for any reason? It seems the program isn't so independent. Hey, it was just a discussion of what ifs. We will note that you vote to maintain adult control. Barry

The Scoutmaster signature requirement, TWICE! Barry

I'm still trying to understand your point in all this, So again, are you just wanting to allow atheist to be Eagles? Do you know someone that quit scouting because of the elaborate requirements? And, have you considered that taking god out of scouting would drive more families away than the families you say leave because of the god part in scouting? I'm just curious because to me this is a big over reaction to nothing. But I will respect that you just don't like god in scouting. Barry

We had a discussion here a few years ago of someone proposing the idea that the MB part of the program become independent of the unit. I'm really growing on the idea. Barry