Eagledad

All Scout Masters will tell you that their troop is boy run, and they are to some degree. But a troop can only be a boy run as the SM is willing to let it be. I used to teach boy run and man my vision of boy run can be a tough sell. But the first question is what do you as the SM envision a boy run troop to be and why? What do the scouts get out of it? What the scouts get out of it is how you will market the idea. What you envision the boys doing is the frame work of reaching that goal. For me boy run gives scouts the true independence to practice making right decisions based off the Scout Law. I market it like this, character is easy when the adults make all the decisions, it become a bit more challenging when the scouts have to make the decisions. Scouts can become a lot less friendly, courteous and kind under the stress of trying cook dinner for a whole patrol or set up camp in the rain. My scouts are more mature than the average scout in leadership and making good decisions because they do so much more of it in our troop. Does that at least begin to answer the question, I may be way off track. Barry

The uniform is functional and a method. How important is the uniform depends on how it is used functionally and what you want our of the methods. Functionally the uniform is and equalizer that both hides and identifies scouts in the program. The poor scouts is equal to any other scout in uniform and identifies himself with patrol, troop and rank patches. All of these things are meant to prevent barriers in their goals to follow their dreams. On the method side, there is not method that challenges a scout to honor the expectations of being obedient than the uniform. If the troop expectations are full uniform and the scout shows up in jeans, well he made a wrong choice. How many wrong choices can a scout make before it becomes a habit. But don't misunderstand, telling a scout to get in proper uniform does not have the same possitive impact of the scout himself choosing to wear the uniform because it is the right choice. Many adults say wearing the uniform brings pride in being a boy scout. But I say just the opposite, how a scout wears the uniform shows how proud he is to be a boy scout. In fact, I learned that that 9 times out of 10, a scout who not in proper uniform who usually is in uniform has a big problem going on in his life. Made for some very good SM conferences. The main thing is you are going to haft to get in your mind is how you want the scouts to grow with the uniform. Once your figure that out, then you can answer your other questions. But get ready, the Scout Handbook explains proper uniforming. It's hard for me to explain to scouts that they can deviate from it. In fact, we didn't. That doesn't mean our whole troop was in full uniform. Many scouts made the wrong choice. Barry

Man is corrupt, God is not. So long as that is understood first by all, then at worst mans corruptness is temporary. But God as a consistent starting place is forever. I'm speaking pragmatically of course. Barry

I take Pascals quote as meaning even godly men can be self-serving; not confused or misunderstanding. But either way, God will always be the reference even a 1000 years later. That is not possible with man. Man is naturally corrupt, which means they as a source start out corrupt. It gets no better than God, It gets a lot worse without God. Barry

Yes, but the difference is man does it more often and more discretely because there are no hard set standards that are known by all that don't change with time. Man is fickle and changes at the drop of the hat. Man is not moral, God is. Barry

Better than man taking on the biggest stick. Even for atheist. Fairness is when the meek can hold the elitist equally accountable.

I don't think the author would disagree, but the problem is excepting a code that all will agree is fact. When we suggest there isn't a moral code of facts from a philosophical point of view and that is taken to the working level of the environment , we open the door to a general understanding of no moral codes of facts. So where does it stop? Merlyn says to have a strict code of morals, or suggests them as facts, results in tyranny (I think I said that right). But I think the author is saying without a concept of moral facts, tyranny will be the final result to prevent chaos. Barry Barry

Ah yes, the big stick. If the big stick is God, then the fact is equal to all including community leaders and elitist. Most important the leaders and elitist. Barry

I understand, that allows a great deal of room to maneuver around the facts. Until you are a victim of course. And I think that was the authors point. If everything is an opinion, the result is a lawless society. Barry

If God sets a standard of behavior, its a moral fact. That you don't agree with it doesn't make it less. If the guy with the big stick puts you in jail for what he says is a moral crime, does it really matter if you agree. The fact is you are in jail for the crime. Barry

oooh, thanks

Ah, bob and weave, I get it. You changed the subject, not me. Barry

What part of that is sarcasm? Those are the facts. Barry

I tried that and couldn't figure out how to make it work. Barry

Yes, because everyone follows one single unchanging consistent source. Those citizens know that nothing changes after the next election cycle or changing of the guard. And the poor can hold the elitist accountable to the equal standard. Barry

Ah, so would say that murder is defined by the guy with the biggest stick? Barry

My personal experience is that the district politics make planning any district activity challenging for scouts. That is coming from someone who spent a lot of time on the District committee. Let district do their thing and your scouts do their own thing. Much cleaner and easier. Barry

Not sure even what Multiquote does, but it looks interesting. Barry

Then ask, but you didn't do that. You went off on your merry way to be condescending and deceptive. I'm told by a few that your style of presenting your opinion is the way of folks in Maine and I need patience before judging their bad actions. Is that being fair to people of Maine? Barry

You would think, but then my religion supports it as a moral fact. To be fair, what do the unreligious say? Barry

My response to Tyke was fair to his point and respectful of him, Moose. Barry

If you really like it, start by doing one at the patrol level. Organize one for a campout where all the Patrols compete. Our older scouts designed and planned it, then they got the adults to help run it so that scouts could participate. It was a good teacher for doing the Trooporee. The scouts loved them because it is a different kind of campout. Planning is the Hard part. Our first one was a night Patrol-o-ree under the Star Trek theme. The competition kicked off from the Saturday campfire, so it went until about 2:00 am. That was the one time the adults fixed breakfast for the troop. The PLC planned another a year or two later where the patrols had to hike, bike, canoe and backpack all day long, The older scouts planned 16 competition events all along the path. I thought they were crazy and the patrols would be gone into the night, but they we all done by 3:00. Not counting the canoeing, that scouts traveled over five miles. It needs to be double that. They had free time the rest of the day and I have never seen scouts and Webleos parents play so hard biking, hiking, fishing and whatever. The funny part of the story is that a few days before the campout, a large pack of 22 Webelos asked if they could come with us with their parents. I asked the SPL what they could do and left it up to him. low and behold they were ready for those scouts and their parents. I still laugh looking back seeing the Webelos drive into camp with a large u-haul trailer full of bikes. We had a great PLC then. I still see many of those scouts because they are my sons best friends. I'll to have to remind just what the accomplished. Our troop typically uses Sunday for church service, skills signoff, PLC meeting and Capture the Flag. The Webelos parents were so tired that they ask if to leave after the church service. The troop adults kind of hung back in camp during the Saturday events because the scouts run the show, but the Webelos parent went along with the scouts. They used muscles they hadn't used in years, so they could barely walk. Honestly I thought we lost those Webelos, but six months later we ended with 30 new scouts from that one pack. They had so much fun they invited their friends to join. Taking the Webs was not part of the plan, we don't do anything special for their visits. But I guess it's all in the timing. Good memories Barry

That is a great idea. I wished I had heard this when I was SM. Barry

Oh we did a lot of creative ideas. We had some great scouts. My favorite idea that I never got to try was doing a backpacking camporee in town to a city park. Each patrol would set up their camp the night before at a location an equal distance to the park. Probably a church. Without adults, all the patrols would get up the next morning, pack up their gear and backpack to the park following a map that would take them to several stops along the way for skills testing. Once at the park, they set up camp. The evening meal would be provided by the troop adults who are all competing against other troops for their creative cooking skills. All the food is to feed the whole camp and it better be good because the public is watching. Then the campfire would be at the football field in the park so that locals could come and watch the patrols skits, songs, awards presentations and general fun. There would be NO adult Wood Badge beading at this party. A rock band intertains after the campfire. The intent is so all the local residents would see their scouts hiking around town all day in their full BSA glory. All patrols are boy run with not a single adult around. The skills events would be a locations where residents can come and watch. Then of course all can be seen at the park. Honestly for most folks, scouting is a mystery. So the camporee would bring it into full view of the community and the scouts would have fun in the process just doing their scouting stuff. That was the dream that never happened. Barry

Great question. Merlin! Pack needs some help here. Barry