Eagledad

TAHAWK, between IOLs and WB, adults get enough exposure to patrol method to understand the intended structure. The problem with the WB Course previous to the 2000 course was that it was not intended to teach adults the process of patrol method. The patrol structure was only used as the basis for the adults to observe teaching techniques. The course was was intended for experienced adults who already understood how patrol method worked toward boy growth. The previous course was an advanced course designed for experienced scouters ready for advanced skills. But by the the late 1990s, most of the participants (as well as much of the staff) were not ready for the advanced skills being presented. They misunderstood and confused the lesson objectives. When adults don't understand the bigger picture of why the method works, they tend to copy and force it in there own troop exactly as they experienced it. That is what caused the failure of the course. As I was saying, the challenge for National is how to indoctrinate new adult leaders into a program that 3/4 of them have never experienced. The BSA program is being shaped by those adults. Barry

I guess I'm a bit more methodical on this. As a numbers person, I know the BSA has internal problems that far far out weigh uniforms and local option (uniforms?). For the past 15 years posters have been proclaiming that allowing gays would change the trend of lowering numbers. Yet, there was no evidence to suggest it. However, we can track declines by policy changes, specifically in Cubs. I haven't seen the numbers the last two years, but I'm quite confident that allowing gay scouts didn't fix the declining trend. Now we think, the local option will do the trick? I'm with the guys who want to get back to the adventure. While I don't think allowing patrols to camp without adults will change most troop programs, it is indicative of National going back to the outdoors. And, a simpler cub program that the average adult can manage on a couple hours a week will help reduce the burnout problem that is killing us. The BSA looses more than 50% of 2nd year Webelos. 1st year Webelos and Bears aren't that far behind. And most of that is attributed adult leader burnout. All that being said, I'm not confident a new executive chief can even see the real problem in two years, much less fix it. A bold move would be to shake up the lower ranks National a bit to find those with a passion for the vision again. Barry

That's exactly why the old WB was closed. Participants will get plenty patrol method modeling in the courses, but that's not patrol method is really about. It's easy to teach the mechanics and structure of Patrol a Method, but understanding the results is very different of a gang of boys stuck together is not something that can be seen in a few hours by adults pretending to be scouts. if you as a new adult who had never seen a Boy Scout patrol had just spent two days being in a patrol with a PL, APL, and all the other patrol positions, what are you going to do when you get back to your troop? I learned in a class in college that group must work together about 35 hours before group dynamics "starts" take effect. That is barely a camp out for the average troop. From the stories I've heard, likely the only course where adult participants experienced some patrol method was the old WB course at Philmont because they were stuck together for seven days. Most troops don't realize that summer camp is the most intense patrol method for their scouts. Ever notice how the worst of everyone comes out about Wednesday of camp? That is why adults who experienced scouting as a youth have a leg up. They know the routine of boys living together. It's noy just about the PL holding control and everybody working together in ideal conditions (WB, IOLs, SM Fundamentals). Patrol method is finding your character when your not in the mood. You kind of have to be there to get it. I don't know the answer of how to prepare clueless adults with minimum skills to manage 50 boys in the woods with the objective of developing them into moral decision makers. What skills do they really need to know, knots or servant leadership? They can build patrols, but are they doing patrol method? It is said, and I agree, that a SM needs about three years to be a productive scout leader. How long does it take the rest of the adults? I've staffed just about all adult traing classes since the early 90s and none of them really prepare adults for patrol method because it has to be seen in action. Barry

You have no idea how valuable you are good. The original Woodbadge course was designed to teach SMs better teaching techniques, not scout skills. But as the course started accepting low experienced scouters, the WB staffs forgot the original objective. As a result, the course was doing negative training in the later years before it scrapped the course in 2000 for the course we have now. The problem the BSA is facing now is how to bring the present generation of adult leaders up to a working speed for helping boys developing character through an outdoor program. At issue is about 75 % of new scouters today were not boy scouts as a youth. WB today is not designed to teach adults the patrol method or experts in scout skills. It is designed to teach how to build working teams for managing scout units of all ages. But adults aren't comfortable with taking boys in the woods without better training. I think the BSA Hasn't found yet how to get new adults up to operation status. The experienced scouter is becoming more and more valuable. Barry

i guess this is the wrong discussion to mention how I think the tiger program has wreck the whole BSA program. Until the BSA aloud gay scouts, Tigers was the number one cause of cub adults and scouts quitting. I saw the problem back in 1995; it's just Seattles last straw. Barry

Where all the scouts woods tools trained? If they were, I might have let them go and showed up a little later to offer my services for the fire. I do think we have ranted about boy run to the point that adults are afraid to do anything, which causes more problems when the program stalls. What's important is for adults to evaluate there actions and measure the results, just like we suggest to the scouts. In my opinion the adults do it wrong more than the scouts. But if they change to try to do it better the next time, the program moves forward and matures. Barry

It sure was for me. We could measure a lot of growth from the uniform method. It is a great tool for developing maturity because it is so challenging for both the scouts and adults. Like any of the methods, you just have to know your goals and how to apply the tools toward those goals. I really really don't believe the uniform is the make or break of a youth program. Barry

Good to here that some things don't change. Barry

Use to be the best youth leadership training a scout could get, is NOAC still that way. Barry

No, when he met his second wife. LOL It's true. Barry

Both the BSA and GSUSA are going (actually GSUSA has been there a long time) progressive and 4H is not. Barry

Liberal atheist "dad". And a proud democrate. As you can imagine we don't get much into political discussions because they never go well. We have scouting in common. Interesting story, he was a Scoutmaster at the age of 15 because all the men were at war. He became a liberal when he personally met Elenaor Roosevelt. I know what you are thinking, how could we be so different. Me a visionary and him so gullible. LOL Barry

LOL, I'm trying to figure out how you would convince my liberal democrate atheist dad that your religion has anything to do with the biology of a man born to want a man. Barry

This reminds me of the current Girl Scout uniforms of a vest with patches. That has been the basic uniform for over 25 years, yet all the movies that use the Girls Scout image still show them in the previous green skirts style uniforms because nobody would recognize the organization in the present uniforms. One that comes to mind is the movie Dodge Ball. Barry

Of course there is no proof that gays are born gay and you don't have to be religious to consider the crime of encouraging a person to live a life they weren't born for. But if you want to go that trail, many other groups support your progressive thinking like pedifiles, bestiality, bisexuals, necrophilia, transexuals and on and on. Is everyone normal and should be allowed to be role models for our sons? Barry

Back when camporees were a big thing, our troop practiced every Saturday for two months. During that time, it was learned that the new guy (me) was a natural at tying knots, so I was given the task of inspecting every knot and lashing at every event that used ropes. I never had to tie a knot and the PL couldn't say done until I said all was good. That was a pretty big deal considering that over half our patrol of 12 was 14 and older. Our patrol took blue ribbons in knots and the chariot race. Barry

OK, but my point was there wasn't any clever plot by National to use boy-run over boy-led because of their approach to teach leadership. Honestly I think you give them too much credit. Personally my own definition of the differences between boy led and boy run are completely different than yours. So who should the BSA follow? Barry

Not true, I met one of the authors of the SM Training program and boy-run is just a term that has been used for years. There was no clever strategy to take over the world with it. In fact, their task of just defining it so 1000's of Scoutmasters who come from every walk of life would understand the intention of Boy run was the real challenge. Read the definition and you will agree it is quite vanilla in it's description. Barry

For the boys is it a full week of being left alone to make their own decisions. That means they take what classes they want to take and participate in the activities they want to participate. Younger scout tend take more fun activities than classes and the older scouts more classes than activities. New scouts have to learn to find their way and old scouts practice more of serving those around them. For the adults, it is a high impact week of patrol method. The scouts are in total control and really have to learn how to work with each other in accomplishing tasks as patrols and as a troop. That sounds so simple, but getting up late on the troop campout doesn't have the same impact of the whole troop arriving late for camp morning assembly. Summer camp usually polishes our scouts into a lean mean boy run program. It's pretty impressive actually. It is so much work on our SPL that we pay there way. Barry

Wow, a pragmatic none condescending explanation of the situation. Well done. Now how do I explain it to my liberal democrate atheist dad who doesn't believe people are born gay and are not good role models for boys? It's one of the few things we agree on. Barry

Hmm, a bunch of whining, but no real answers to LeCaster question about the present uniform. The difficulty of the uniform is the ages of the scouts in the program. New scouts are at the age they want to look like the older scouts, so the uniform is easy. the 13 and 14 year old scouts are going through a change where they are questioning their identity and no uniform is acceptable. The 15 and older scouts have little trouble with the uniform because they know the uniform is part of the program. So no matter what uniforms are selected, not all scouts will welcome them. So what then? First off I find the adults are as much of the problem as the scouts. The responses on this thread show how willing adults are willing to undermine the method as the scouts. That makes it more of an uphill battle using the method. to START, how the adults feel about the uniform shouldn't be important, how the role model making right decisions is the "Most" important. If the adult decided to protest the uniform by not wearing it correctly, the scouts will follow. And sadly the scouts will learn a lot of lessons from that example. No matter what the scout choose to do for themselves personally, the adults have to set the highest example. Scouts should always see the model for which they should aspire, not down to the lower. The adults are the primary method for setting the "Best" example. Also, adults should have a basic understanding of why the uniform is important in the scouting program. When a scout say the uniform is stupid, the adult needs to be ready for explaining how the uniform identifies each boy in the patrol as an equal partner to the team. From the outside, no boy is richer or poorer, smarter, or set apart from the group. For better or worse, the scout is an equal partner. "But I don't want to look like everyone else". The uniform give each scout their own personal identity that sets them apart from the group through rank, special awards, order of the arrow, and even outside troop activities like high adventure. The individuality the uniform provides allows the scout to be honored for his personal accomplishments within the scouting program and in the community. Any person with an understanding of scout only has to look at a scout uniform to know his experience and accomplishments. Of course there are many many more answers to guiding scouts on the uniform, these are just a few examples of helping guide a scout in a way of thinking for the value of the uniform. Of course as I said, some adults have to get past their own hang ups. Barry

I'm sure those definitions work for you, but the BSA only use the one "boy run", term with a broader definition. Right or wrong a listener likely doesn't use your same definitions. And many times you might hear the terms used synonymously in a discussion. Many of us who do (did) training try to use the same terminology as the materials provided by National to prevent confusion. And sadly to my wife's frustration, must of us don't read minds. LOL Barry

At least until a few years ago, the BSA used the term boy run. Barry