Eagledad

Go to any gay pride parade. Barry

Agree 100 percent. In fact I tell troop leaders in training that the quality of a troop is measured by the older scout part of the program. We not only had a 75% retention up to 16 year olds, we average one older scout from other troops switching to our troop. Reputation travels far. I also worked all around using NSPs and eventually only used them their first six months if we had more new scouts joining than two per patrol. The BSA looses more scouts in the first 6 months of a boys troop experience than any other age. We suffered over 50% losses of new scouts our first couple years, but eventually brought that number up to over 90% retention after learning how over the years. In fact, the reason National created the NSP program was to raise the first year number up. I did some research around 2005 to see how much the NSP had improved the national retention rate of first year scouts and found it had not changed it at all. It's a difficult problem to solve, but NSPs turned out not to be the fix. It sounds like TAHAWK went kind of the direction we eventually found. I personally believe the NSP has caused more damage to true boy run patrol method than any other program change made at the Boy Scout level because if forces the adults to get more involved. Like TAHAWK, I don't like talking about our program because it comes off bragging. But I do think both of us want to help others have the same success with true patrol method programs like we experienced. Barry

No way around it, NSP has to be more adult run for the scouts to grow. The BSA added troop guides to help the problem, but they don't make up for experienced patrol mates. Adults have to step in our the boys quit. Even stosh admitted this as he talked about working with his four scouts the last year. Barry

TGs were created 1990 (1989?) to replace the older scouts of the traditional scout program. I've never seen a good TP that was 14 and younger TP. I've never been less than impressed with a TP that was 16 and older. I grew to respect ages and stages. Barry

ah, I see what you are saying, traditional scouting was adult run. Still, it was successful for a long time, how do you account for that stosh? Barry

Stosh, you didn't answer the question, how do you think Scouting stood the test of time with mixed age patrols? Barry

Sadly you had to finish with hypothetical make believe to impress your point because you don't beleave the rest of your post can hold your opinion. There is no mention of age based patrols in the BSA or Baden Powells scout's because there wasn't any need for the definition until 1990 when the program was change to add New Scout Patrols (NSP). Until then scouts joined troops individually when they qualified by age, not in groups of Webelos the way it is now. That is when the terms aged based and boy run became descriptive terms of the troop program. You may find old timers like me who were in same age patrol before 1990, but it was rare. So scouting not only survived with mixed age patrols for almost 80 years, the organization became legend. Now you may may want to debate what defines a tradition scout program, but for me it was up until age based patrols were introduced in 1990. I don't know why you feel you have to demonize mixed age patrols to impress your point. I respect that your style of leading lends itself better with same age scouts. However, I don't respect your style of trying make your point. Can't you just say I'm more comfortable with same age patrols and let that stand for your opinion? I have a lot of experience with both mixed age and same age patrols so I can discuss with the best of them on both sides. Barry

Stosh, your theory for a successful patrol method program is based off the premise of using same age patrols. However, same age patrols are not the designed structure of the traditional patrol method in Baden Powells scouts nor the BSA. How do you explain the long standing successes of traditional scouting without same age patrols? Barry

In all my years as a youth and adult in scouting, I've never heard of that happening. In fact, I found the opposite more the reality when I worked with older scouts on JLTC (NYLC) courses. As much as "boy run" is given credit for patrols excelling past patrols in adult run troops, adults are, more often than not, the catalysts for scouts thinking out-of-box. Some boys need to be shown how to look at the world outside their window, some boys just need permission. Whatever the reason, show me scouts who follow their dreams and I'll show great adults somewhere in the shadows. Experienced SMs know what I'm talking about. Barry

Lol, All I read is nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as you see it my way. Barry

So you are a Bob White! Lol

Interesting idea. I know a lot of troops have elections before the new scouts join because their votes can mislead the results. Your idea would actually set an example for new scouts. Barry

It's contriversal because there is an illusion of getting more from the course than intended. It's a course of learning how set realistic goals to move toward a vision and building a team to help achieve those goals. But many hope to be converted to experts in scout skills and patrol method. That is not what the course is about. As the course ASM for Troop Guides, I was responsible for approving all the participants tickets, so I can give some advice. Ticket items are supposed to toward your vision of your responsibility. I find that many participants don't really know what their responsibility is. Some are new and just haven't been given any expectations or title, so I advise they sit down with the person who is guiding them. Some participants have several responsibilities at different levels of the program like Eagle94, so they aren't really sure where to apply the tickets. I suggest they see themselves two years down the road and consider the applying the tickets in that direction. Also folks don't see themselves in the big picture of the program. A CM considers assisting the Webelos leader because the den struggles. I suggest they instead recruit assistant leaders at all levels and getting them trained. A much smaller ticket item in terms of effort, but much more important for overall unit performance. I tend to push people to think big in terms of their future, but small in tickets toward that future. Same goes with scouter who already feels over burden; I have a thing for burnout, so I guide those adults to change or tweek their responsibilities to be less stressful. Yes, changing task to make your life easier can be a ticket item. I fact, I try to guide most ticket items toward that direction. I dont like and didn't allow ticket items that forced control over the scouts like getting all first year scouts to first class in one year. I instead ask them to build the program so a scout is not hindered to advance at a pace of his choosing. Another common ticket is changing a part of the program without approval from the unit leaders like changing the patrol age structure without discussing it with the SM. As for how to approach WB, the two groups of adults who struggle the most are the adults who think they all ready know it all and want to keep reminding everyone of their knowledge. As I said, this is not a scout skills patrol method teaching course (50% of our participants are cub leaders), so even the best of us can learn about setting goals and building functional teams. The other group that struggles are the adults that think they have a better way and want to debate every subject in the course. Some folks have a chip on their shoulder because some Wood Badger in their past was a little uppity. I advise both these folks to relax and not be so tempted to influence other participants own personal experiences. WB is an enjoyable course if you are willing to open your mind. Most course teams are very good, but they are only as good as the course director. Once in a while, well it's a shame really. Don't over think WB. It's not the end all course it used to be. In fact it really is more the beginning all if done correctly. And if you don't get to be a Bob White, well that is still ok. Barry

Fun discussion, OP expresses a frustration of how the culture is changing (Barry's translation: No morality), and it's the same old responses; nothing is changing and everyone will be fine as soon as We force You to see it our way. I was driving by one of our local Young Women's Christian Associations (YWCA) and a big sign hangs from the building that says "We Fight Against Racism. That seemed odd to me, I don't know why. Of course there is very little "Christian" in the YWCA anymore. They used to be a sanctuary for all women struggling in one way or another. But Ironically they don't women who's religion believes homosexuality is a sin. AND I'm told that women aren't welcome if they are anti abortion. Very complexe because isn't the YMCA a sanctuary for unwed mothers? Or used to be anyway. And we are suppose to believe everything will be OK once the BSA gives in to allowing gay adult leader role models with the so called local option? Then the next battle will be to admit transsexual scouts. And then the trans adult leader role models. But we can take comfort in that it's not about sex. I saw a definition the other day for all this cultural non-change stuff: "State Religion" Barry

We had a mom and son visit us three times. I asked her the third time what they liked about the troop and she said she didn't like it much at all because it basically looked disorganized. But her son loved it because the scouts ran the program. He would have joined after their first visit, but she kept bringing him back hoping he would change his mind. They joined the forth visit. He and his two younger brothers all got their Eagles in our troop. Mom became our best recruiter and CC the troops ever had. Once she saw how boy run worked, she thought it was the best program in the world for boys growing up. Her middle son was also on the soccer team I coached. He is now a surgeon. Barry

I have personally recruited all my replacements. I also personally recruited all our committee chairs. Pick out someone you think would be good for the job and give them an opportunity to try their hand. Many folks are a little shy for volunteering, but will say yes when asked personally. Barry

The first year I was a CM, I ask a den of 5 Webelos why they chose the troop they were just about to crossover into. They all agreed that this troop had the best game of all the troops they visited. All 5 had quit within six months. Adults have to be partners in the process. Barry

I was a pretty strong SM with a pretty good boy run reputation at the district/counsel levels. Two weeks before the official handoff, the next soon to be SM took me out for coffee to request I give him two months of meetings and camp outs before I came back to the troop. He said he needed a clear break from Barry Scouts (said it just like that) because he could never live up to my style of Scoutmastering. It kind of hurt at first, but I also experienced a SM who hung around to long because he couldn't let go. The two months was perfect to get both of us use to our new roles. I think you need to invite the SM for coffee because you won't get anything done at summer camp otherwise. I'm sure he is a good man, but few are that good and you will be doing him a favor. I know it took our new SM a lot of courage to make that request of me, but it was the right thing to do. Barry

Satisfaction Q? The Golden Rule without with sense of the environment is a careless approach on this subject. Also I seem to be talking about youth and you go back to adults. I hate to drop names because we should be trusted in what we say here, but Moose needs more. I simply don't agree with your generalization Q. And one of several friends on the subject is a practicing child psychologist in both the private and public sides. He is also an Eagle Scout, was a SM, and a Silver Beaver. Hope that helps Mooose. But he says that issues with children's sexuality is often the parents and the government causing the problems. That and many other reasons why I feel we should not encourage these things with scouts. It's one thing for a messed up adult to look back and blame the parents. But add to that scouts? Also Moose, I work pretty close with a cross gender person who made that choice at age 61. He freely admits he was raised in a very abusive screwed up family and that is likely the cause of his choice. I'd like to hear his...her psychologist response to that. My point is that more than likely in my opinion the children have less choice than some would to want to feel good about this. Volunteers in scouting should not be put in a situation of encouraging harm to these children. Barry

I totally understand what you are saying LeCaster. In fact I stay here to bring some balance. But from my observation, it wasn't and isn't the discussions on th I & P forum that drove people out, it was the I civility in the scouting forums. There was a time not to long ago that parents and inexperienced leaders were basically told they weren't welcome. Once balanced and helpful discussions become the norm in the scout specific threads, I think the members will start building again. Barry

Ah, so the rule is determined by the number of friends and work associates. Does work assiates gives us higher authority than friends, and what about family members, how do they rate in your system of Giving opinions. And I must say, you think we don't have psychologist friends, family, scout parents, and work associates? The world is a politically correct mess right now. It's no place for youth scouting organizations. Barry

Isn't it interesting how we think our experience trumps everybody else's. From my personal experience with and around this subject, I can say with a clear conscience that encouraging youth along these paths is very dangerous and no business of youth scouting organizations. Barry

You assume too much. There are some here who clearly have a self serving agenda. Barry

So as a group, we think encouraging children to behave In unusual questionably healthy behavior is a morally good thing? Barry

Oh sure you can, even the small changes can be tracked. I'm sure this one is a no brainier. However, as you are showing, as long as the outside problems keep the focus, the real problems on the inside will not get enough attention. So it won't (cannot) get better. Barry