Eagledad

Hmm, maybe they need to teach me. Service hours are required for rank and yet a BOR would have no trouble accepting that experience as noble even though the scout is required to perform the service. When I was a new scoutmaster, I was not happy about the SPL's performance. Frankly he was not meeting my expectations and it bothered me a lot. I asked the forum how to approach the scout and a very wise SM asked me how the scout felt about his performance. I had not thought of it that way. So I called him up and we met for pizza before the meeting and I asked. He spent the next 15 minute listing out all his accomplishments and skills he was learning in his position. I was very proud of this young man after that dinner. And I was also very humble. I change my way of thinking as a scout leader. I made scouts' performance less personal and more about measuring a scout by his expectation, not mine. It's easy to be critical of scouts' choices in our world, but what about their choices made in their world. If the scout isn't approached carefully, more harm than good could caused. This is not about the service, it is about the scouts choice of NOT presenting the whole story. But in his mind, was he being deceptive? Why don't we ask before we get too wrapped around the axle about this. Barry

Why don't a few adults just sit down with her and have a pleasant chat with her to find out what happen. Everyone has a bad day. If this is just one bad day, sheesh we should all be fired. We have asked parents (and leaders) to stay from scouts, but they were guilty of several incidents. Barry

Washing planes is not the only fundraiser in scouting. I am a cancer melanoma survivor, so scouting activities are challenging for folks like me. I should own a sun screen company for the money I've handed them. I admit that I'm pretty persistent (nagging) at the scouts until they apply sunscreen. You know me, I'm the preacher of learn by your actions, but burning during the youth can have dire consequences. So I nag. You can often here in camp, "put on some sun screen or he will show us his scares again". To the OP, let the scouts do what they want, but keep nagging and nagging and nagging. Barry

I know of two boy scout babies (teens now) as a result of Venture Crew tent mates. Barry

Ironically Stosh your definition of First Class is how it was pushed in the traditional program, but changed when the BSA started encouraging your same age patrols system with the NSP and FCFY program. The natural intuitive result was every scout in the patrol advancing together at the same pace, which disregarded scouts advancing at their own choosing or maturity. Advancement became more about stature and less about development. Sadly the BSA has been changing the requirements to fit a more self-serving marketing agenda instead of a character development agenda. It became obvious for me when they added requirements for Webelos to visit troops and fill out Troop applications. Barry

A scout is courteous. Our troop doesn't have quiet time rules, but there is an expectation of keeping voices low so others can sleep. Usually are SPL takes care of the loud ones because the adults are too far away to really be bothered. Once in a while we have scouts (usually first year) who can't seem to control themselves. When the adults were forced to camp a little closer, I have been known to take these scouts on a little hike in the middle of the night. No lecture or anything like that, I just quietly ask them to put on some walking clothes because we are going on a hike. At the end of the hike I do ask these scouts what part of the scout law was not being used to respect the sleep of the other scouts, and I go back to my tent without waiting for an answer. It's bit of a pain, but it usually fixes the problem for the rest of camp, especially summer camp. As for the scouts being tired and exhausted, that is normal for summer camp. Usually peaks about Wednesday or thursday. I always brief the adults to be ready for some pretty cranky scouts and to just keep a happy face.Adults are tired too, but we try to not to let it get us down or just find a quiet place in camp with a book to get away from it all. Barry

Of course, that makes it easy to disregard. But history of other youth scouting programs show the evidence, so it doesn't require a brainiac to figure it out. Remember the days that posters came on this board pontificating that all the BSA had to do was to be more inclusive to raise the numbers. The few of us who knew the facts and history laughed. Sadly we are right, but we aren't laughing because truth hurts. Far more boys will not get the opportunity to be a scout than those that were saved by self-serving activist. You can say it all you want, but the BSA didn't do this to themselves. The were used for a much bigger agenda. Barry

Ah, it's all about the moderators. You and Pack have been resisting discussions of the big changes, but it's going to blow here eventually. Nothing has been settled, the BSA is now a political badge one must wear if they join. Which is going to drive people to make a choice of not making a choice. It's not worth the hassle anymore. Even you and Pack have to admit the irony of how inclusive policy changes are reducing the size of membership. It seems scouting really isn't for every boy. I'm sure there is a silver lining in there somewhere. Barry

I ran into this at summer camp once. Our troop always does a troop campfire in the middle of the week for our own fun. During the campfire each patrol performs a skit, then the scouts vote for the best skit that will be used at the summer camp campfire. The winning skit had a small part where a doctor has the patient bend over and he simulates doing a proctol exam with his finger. Later that night I visited the SPL and told him that I found that little part of the skit offensive and would rather not see it performed again, especially in front of all the other troops. He was perplexed because he didn't see it as being offensive at all. He said he would bring it up at the PLC meeting and let me know. The whole PLC agreed with him. I asked him if he would allow that in front of his mother and sister, he had not thought of it that way, but he still didn't think it offensive. I asured him that the decision was up to him, but I was offended. It bothered me for the next couple of days because I wanted boy run to work and I felt this was a test of it. At dinner before the camp fire, the SPL approached me and said that they change that part of the skit because if one person was offended, that was one too many. And he walked away. But I have never felt more proud as a SM than that moment. As for the skit, they replace the finger with a fake syringe so that the doctor was giving a shot instead of proctol exam. Our Troop got a standing ovation for the skit, something I have never seen before. So, it was a good night all around. My point is that the scout law is to be applied to everyone. It doesn't matter if only one person is offended, as the SPL said, one is too many. Barry

I know this doesn’t directly contribute a lot to Eagle94’s OP, but it stirred up a lot of memories. Watching adult volunteers over the years I've come to realize how fragile the program is. We watch the politics, the angles, and the games adults play to our frustration, but it doesn't take much to upset the present trend. Businesses survive or fail by the quality of their product. If an employee is the cause of poor quality, then our culture expects and understands when they are asked to move on. But volunteer organizations are desperate to keep the program moving, even it that movement is going backwards. We are pretty much left (stuck) with who we get and as a result you would be amazed with the acceptance of really bad volunteers. I mean I have seen some horrible volunteerism accepted by the masses just because nobody else is willing to just say "no, that is stupid". Ok, stupid is unscout-like, but you know what I mean. A long time ago while I was on the district committee, I learned that the adults in our districts 2nd largest troop turned a blind eye to the PLC using hazing to drive out the weaker scouts. Nobody seemed to care because the troop had a good reputation on the whole and their adults volunteered for a lot of district activities. But I guess it got to me because when I bumped into one of their ASMs at the scout store one day, I quietly and politely let him know that I knew it was going on. I can't say our discussion is the reason, but the SM suddenly retired within 6 months and the hazing stopped. But come on, that went on for years. Bad acting goes on all the time from the Cubs down to council level because the show must go on. I've worked with a lot of scouting professionals and some aren’t very good, but I developed a respect for them because they have to deal with really bad volunteers every day. If you could follow a DE around for one day, you would understand. If you don't see the DE very much, it is likely because you have a sound program and their efforts are needed else where. However, as I said the system is fragile and can change quickly. Good or bad, typically adults with strong personalities change the routine at all levels of the program. I have caused change myself at all levels of the program many times. The reason it is so fragile is because 90% of volunteers are followers and/or don't like confrontation. So when a strong personality gets in the mix, they generally will change things up a little. That can be good or bad depending on the person. But I see it over and over as I observe the program. Consistent training is the best way to resist a fickle program. That is why you see me call out extreme untried philosophies on this forum. As the pros have shown me, a little of the bad is acceptable so that the good can move forward because there isn’t enough time in the day to fix every problem and make every program perfect. So they apply their energy where it can have the most positive effect. Usually in the long run it eventually balances out. We all hope that adults eventually get it and things turn around, but sadly my experience is adults don’t change and we have to wait for the circle of life to come back around to make the fix. Likely this SM won't change and the program will suffer until a new volunteer takes over. I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get rid of bad volunteers, but they are like trying to untangled a child's fingers from fly paper. Get this, I even tried to kill a troop once with the objective of starting it back up again with a new committee. Even with some support from the DC, we couldn’t pull it off and the troop still struggles with the same committee 20 years later. Shesh. My apologies to Eagle94 for my wandering off and venting. Barry

And that is important. We found that while they are a bit of pain, pump filtration filters the most water the fastest. Boiling is faster for the amount of water, but that requires fuel for stoves in areas where weren't allowed fires. We take tablets for back up. One thing for sure, practice using whatever system you choose before the trek. I can remember one trek where we spent more time reading the instructions than purifying the water. Barry

Boy, you got some really good suggestions. Swearing is a problem because the adults don't see it as a problem. Like qwazse, there is no swearing in our troop because the the SM stops it every time. But you have to approach it differently because of your adults. As was said by one of the wiser SMs here, if a couple other members of the PLC agree with you, then get the PLC to set some standards for the scouts. Once you do that, then ask the SM and CC to meet with the PLC and ask them to hold the adults accountable to the same policy. As for too many adults, distance is how our troop handles that. We don't set limits on who can attend campouts, but we put enough distance between scouts and parents that it is difficult for them to interfere. Again, the SM can help here by guiding the parents to observe at a distance. That may also help the scout problem you mentioned as well. He is using his parents to get what he wants over the PLC. Given enough distance, the scout and parents will have to make a choice for him to either grow up, or not. Sounds like you have a pretty good troop. I don't have a feel for how your SM leads, but if he is willing to listen to a strong PLC and help you guys in your request to improve the program, you can lead in these changes. Barry

Yes, same thing with cleaning fish, it takes a lot of scrubbing to get rid of that smell. The blueberries were so thick in the Boundary Waters one year that we actually brought enough home to freeze and enjoy for a year. The Canadian ranger (Mounted Police?) told us that bear problems are rare when the blueberries are out because they fill their bellies with them. I don't know, we still played it safe. Barry

We tried to not put repellent on the skin if possible, only our clothing. But if it were applied to skin, we generally only did that in the morning and it wore off by evening where the human smell was stronger. We generally were in our tents before dark in areas of heavy mosquitoes like the Boundary Waters before they became a problem. It was never a problem in mountains where bears might be a concern. Barry

Yes, I haven't been in bear county in a few years, so there may be some new odorless products I haven't seen. But some things just have a smell, so sometimes not attracting critters is more about using a strategy of what odors and when. For example, the clothes we wear during the day with mosquito repellent and other odors we keep in the bear bag at night. Same goes with clothing that has spilled food on them. Just about every attack of a scout at Philmont was a result of food, food wrappers, or food on clothing in the tent. Bears in general don't like the smell of humans, so it's the other smells that overpower their repulsion of man. Good question, I'll be interested in the other comments. Barry

Pragmatically, the line of acceptance of a role model is when the actions or reputation of the role model are considered safe for a scout to imitate in his own behavior as a result of his observations or respect of the role model. Barry

Pragmatism. The goal of the program is to develop boys into making ethical and moral decisions. Race has little or no influence to do with that goal. Girls dilutes the program quality because boys of this age are biologically distracted during the activities intended to develop their decision making maturity. And homosexuality is an issue of moral role modeling. If one is capable of leaving their emotions and biases out, the membership structure makes sense to achieve the best performing program for the vision. Barry

This isn't like ebonics, the education elites are pushing this model across the county. Oklahoma City is dealing with it right now. There is a middle school where most of the teachers are threatening to leave. My son who teaches at an at risk high school get many of those students and he is concerned enough with the this trend and how much politics is influencing basic education that he is considering a new line of work. Many say that the BSA is a white mans program. If this education model becomes popular in minority communities, scouting will be even more politically incorrect and more controversial. Barry

I have two kids who are teachers and the Oklahoma City school district is going through this issue right now with a new adminstrator who is following this approach to change the culture. A lot of teachers are very concerned. But notice what the training is trying to discourage. ""The manual defines this “white culture†with a list of values, such as “promoting independence, self expression, personal choice, individual thinking and achievement,†because apparently those are strictly “white†concepts and not emphasized in black communities. Read the whole article: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/oregon-white-privilege-100K Barry

Makes sense. I would say half of our troops SMs were not registered members in their pack. But, they didn't come forward for a troop job either. They were recruited (heels dragging) to be ASMs and eventually found the passion to be very good Scoutmasters. And, I can think of three pack leaders (Eagles/SPL/OA during youth) who planned to be SM's when they joined the BSA in Tigers, but declined the SM gig a few years later because they had burned out. However, it wasn't do to a lack of warning by me. I actually insisted two of these guys not get involved at the pack level, and they still did. You just can fight passion and enthusiasm. They would have been great Scoutmasters. Barry

This is not what I mean. I don't have a problem with female leaders per say, I am being more pragmatic to how the introduction of female leaders has changed the program. And really, it not so much about females, admitting females was the defining moment when the majority of adult leaders didn't have experience with scouting or camping. Even men who have never camped or experienced scouts from a youth perspective have a completely different vision of boy scouting. Just the simple task of starting a fire is a huge undertaking for these adults. Can they really appreciate the reward of watching a boy mature from the decisions made from being responsible for some tasks. The last thing on my mind of a Scout taking on a POR is that he can use it to advance in rank. I think of it as maturing in making decisions based on thinking for others. I think in terms of character, but folks who never experience personal growth in the scouting seem to think in terms of rank. When a scout takes on a new MB, I am more concerned how well he performed the responsibilties of communicating the counselor and filling out the paperwork than I am of him completing the badge. Lacking enough experienced adult leaders is what I mean by the changes as a result of admitting women. Barry

Yeah, and Bad Wolfs baby boomers explanation makes sense as well. There was a lot of program dynamics going on in the 90s. I was right in the middle of it trying run a program that looked something like what I experienced in the 60s/70s. It was a challenging time. We had the video game challenges of the time, but I missed the social media thing the scouts have today. Barry

Must be a local thing. I've attended hundreds of crossovers and there was always someone (usually SPL and SM at least) receiving them. But the packs set the time and place of their crossovers, so it can be difficult to have troop representatives at every crossover. I remember our troop had to visit three crossover one night. We had half our PLC and ASMs covering them. Probably why I like the District crossover so much. Our troop was trying to help packs by letting us do the crossover, but folks would be surprised to learn the most Webelos families choose their troop within one day of their crossover. That made it impossible for our PLC to plan. If I were to get back on district, I would try to change the tradtition from the packs being responsible for crossovers to the troops. Then see what happens. Barry

Flash in the Pan? Go ask the Girl Scouts, Campfire Girls and Canadian Scouts how flash in the pan accepting gay scouts was to their program. It is the direct cause of the single largest loss of scouts in the history of all three of those programs. It completely change the face of Canadian Scouts to what is seen more now as kind of a YMCA style of program. We have yet to see how flash in the pan it will be to the BSA numbers, but it sure won't be anything to cheer about. As for the parent not having camping experience, that happened the year they accepted women. The organization is still today realigning its traditional program structure to adjust for that one policy change. You think the water gun restriction would have come up in a room full of men? There are a lot of causes to the changes in the program or membership decline, but you can make light of the impact the gay issue acceptance of women have on the program.