Eagledad

Bragging as the most self-righteous in the neighborhood is always dangerous because that is when you find that you really do discriminate, especially with youth programs. Barry

We plan a year of program every six months with each new PLC. So in essence, each PLC reviews the first six months and plans the following six months. Barry

I've not been to Bartle, but we have tried several times because we wanted to experience the camp and witness Mic-O-Say.The reputation of the camp and Mic-O-Say is well established and huge. The organization doesn't get that way by accident. Barry

Hmm, so a confused young man joins the scouts to be swayed into homosexuality? The BSA has become a less safe place for scouts than it was two years ago. Barry

I am surprised people are surprised by all this, it has been discussed for years. Two things that we all knew, or most of us, was that the BSA was going to loose membership when they changed their policy to accept gays because that is the result of every scouting youth organization in North America. The second fact we have discussed and knew was a risk was that the LDS might leave. As for the panic, well NJ, go ask the cake bakers about that. We have been discussing that issue a long time as well. NJ, you didn't really believe the gays were going to accept those terms did you? I would, it doesn't accomplish a thing in their goal for gay behavior to be considered normal. Cross dressing is next, how far will it go is the question. I know that the Law and Oath will have to change to be acceptable to the New World Order. Barry

This topic needs to be changed to worst weather. Living in Oklahoma, we have a lot of server thunderstorms that make the experience as challenging as snow. One of our patrols on a patrol campout had to break camp quickly because the weather radio said they were in the path of a tornado. They breaking camp in 45 mph winds was challenging, but fun. The tornado did hit the area an hour later. I used to love watching a lightning storm and listen to the thunder, until I became responsible for dozens of other parents' kids. It's seemed to follows us everywhere from the back country Rockys in New Mexico and Colorado to the Northern Tier. Yep, snow and below freezing weather was a breeze compared to server thunder storms, at least for me. Barry

The most snow was 6 inches overnight on my very first camp out as a boy scout. It had not been forecasted and it was 80 degrees the day before. We were not prepared to say the least. I remember the SM walking through camp at sunup telling everyone to pack up and don't eat the yellow snow. I can't say I remember our coldest campout, we have had several below zero. While we don't a lot of snow in Oklahoma, it does get cold now and then. Barry

Our troop always has our own agenda within the camp agenda. We try to schedule at least one troop activity where the camp opens the activity only for our troop. Usually it is shooting sports, but it can be anything. We push the scouts to stay busy with non advancement activities and look for camps with a wide verity of biking, water sports, and so on. We also take a couple of tubs of checkers, chest, footballs, wiffle ball sets baseballs and other stuff for scouts wanting to fill in some time. Our scouts are rarely bored. We do our troop campfire to pick the best skit and we always do a river raft trip, Six Flags, or something on our way home from camp to finish with a bang. We are rewarded with scouts who are usually dead asleep before lights out AND on the way home from camp. I've bragged before that 90 percent of our older scouts go to summer camp until they age out. I think it is because we have so much fun. Barry

I'm not talking about getting them more involved, I'm talking about expectations for their sons that only a troop can provide. I'm speaking to them as parents who are investing into a program that will give their son a better future. One of my most challenging parents was an Air Force General who was also an Eagle Scout, His son absolutely hated boy scouts. We finally had to have the hard talk when his son ran away from a camp out. His son just may not be boy scout material, but if we go forward with this, he was going to have to work with me. The son did eventually earn his Eagle, but it required a lot of patience from dad. Barry

Most here know that I am not a fan of parent bashing because 9 times out of 10, the problem is with the unit leaders not taking the time to teach the parents the purpose and workings of the program. Of course the 1 out of 10 is usually a real dozy. But some of my harshest critics turned into our most devoted followers because we gave them consistent guidance that they eventually witnessed. I believe that good scout masters spend 50 percent of their efforts with the adults. Barry

That is too bad, our best SPL and scout was a natural leader that never made it past 1st Class. He hated advancement , but was one of those kind of leaders that even inspired the adults. As I matured and started to observe the different dreams and goals of each scout, I changed my approach of using rank and age as a measure for qualification in the program. I instead started encouraging the measure of maturity and experience. Barry

It wouldn't be called Scouting, it would be called YMCA summer camp. Barry

How did he get elected? The responsibility itself should have a enough respect that the scouts choose someone they think can perform the job. Even if the scout doesn't live up to expectations, the position should still carry enough respect that the scouts will follow to some degree. Not enough information to know why, but it sounds like this scout wasn't ready for the responsibility, or the scouts don't really respect the position. Barry

We never sent a scout home, we gave the parent who was asked to come to camp for their misbehaving son, the choice to stay and escort their son to all the activities. Parents always chose to take their son home. But, after the first three years of running our troop, we never had any scouts misbehave that badly. Not sure how but the peer pressure among the scouts matured to a point where that kind of behavior wasn't tolerated. I can't say for sure, but maybe it was because we pushed camp more for fun and adventure and not so much advancement. We also had 90% of our 14 and older scouts go to summer camp up until they aged out. That may account for our lack of bad behavior, I don't know. Barry

Well the Girl Scouts certainly believe that. Even if the discussion were raise to higher level, the BSA and Girls Scouts have an agreement for NOT merging. Something dramatic would have to happen for that to change. Barry

Human nature of boys before puberty is to hang around in herds. The female nature is more independent thinking, so yes they accel in leading up to puberty. However, boys who come from a good leadership program before their puberty are very good leaders after puberty even with females because their more forward nature is equal. But the boys who weren't in good leadership programs are the ones who struggle with their aggressive opposite gender because they simply don't have the skills to lead the group. I don't have a problem mixing the genders after puberty because the basic development of character has been programmed. But that doesn't mean it will be a good mix, hormones are still a problem and should be considered as a very powerful challenge in the development of young adults. One of my boy run mentors that taught me a lot about scouting quit because he grew tired of the challenge. The sexes shouldn't be mixed before puberty because it distract everyone (youth and adults) from the task of building moral and ethical decision makers. I find that two out of three adults who push for mixed scouting are coming from the political correctness agenda, not the character development agenda. Barry

Is that really fair? Tell me what group deserves that kind of discussion, especially with the youth? I have been frustrated many times with the way youth are discussed here when their behavior isn't considered appropriate. Ok, maybe there can be some allowance for bully's and discipline problem scouts, but what about young Eagles or scouts who don't camp much. I could go on, but you understand what I'm saying. I can't believe what adults here will say about these youth. Dangerous Maybe, but certainly terrible. Why must specials rules be set for special groups when it should apply to everyone equally. And, what about discussion of gay adults? How can one be discussed without referring to the other? Lots of slippery slopes that would not be needed if the forum were held to higher standard for everyone. Barry

I'm not close to a good editor, so I'm speaking only from your last two paragraphs. The rest of your post went into left field and spoke of your life or something. Oh I understand, I'm getting old and my responses are getting long and rambly as well.. For the record, my comment that I feel unwelcome here has nothing to do with anything that happen to me personally. It's more of a tone I've notice by all the moderators the few last weeks. The mods seem to be making a more concerted effort to bring the difficult discussions to a conclusion instead of letting the die on their own merits. There is some threatening as well and suggestions of moving on. That in my view is not the job of the moderators. Terry's comments I felt supported that tone.. I've known you Pack for over 15 years, so I know the difference in your personal opinions and your moderating and I felt you did a pretty good of keeping the two separate until lately. I have many times accused your of thinking you are the smartest person inthe room, or discussion. Your magnanimous defense of yourself supports my reasoning and the why I struggle to feel sorry the reprocussions of your positions. You knew exactly what you were doing. My opinion of your moderating lately is that you are so emotionally invested to the subjects of some of the discussions lately that you can't tell the difference between the progress of a discussion from or an endless plodding. Being fair requires an univested pragmatic unbiased approach. You are being hit from all sides because you aren't being fair and you intrude with the wrong reasons at the wrong time. I believe the reason Terry and all the moderators are loosing patience with the discussions lately is because they thought the debate was over when the BSA made the membership policy change. As Pack, Terry (and others) keeps pointing out, we won, you lost, move on. But, that doesn't mean the debate was over, as new members came in and fueled new discussions with old arguments, many of us weren't going to be talked down and insulted. The reasons for opposition to gays are still the same. To many many of us those who believe they are the winners, as pack implies, are still wrong and more youth will suffer than will gain from the change. I don't think things will change until we all feel we are in this together. I don't get that feeling from you pack, the other moderators or Terry that you want that unless it is on your terms. that's why several of the post that stand up for the moderators and Terry feel the need to say they agree with the gay decision. I keep asking myself, why do they feel the need to say that. Can't you see it's devisive? So maybe Terry is right, maybe the only solution to this situation is not allow the discussion. Scouter.com would not be the first forum to remove the politics and religious discussions.

I don't think so Pack, Terry's post is pretty clear that it's us against them, or him and you against us. You only have to compare the active membership between now and the old days to recognize how the forum has changed. Clearly the moderating is part of the problem. When a line is drawn, the one has become two. What, do you really think you could go back to being fair and unbiased like the tone of the forum was 20 years ago? From the beginning you have always played the biased antagonist, was that really the right place for a moderator? When a society or group are unwilling to enforce its untouchable rules of decorum (scout oath and law), then they are stuck with the fallible (emotional) laws of the guy with the most power. Some of us are hurting. Barry

Thanks Matt and well said. I have been here a long time and feel I have contributed a lot, as well as have a lot more to contribute. But I have also never felt less welcome to the forum than in the last couple of weeks. Barry

Why would they, it still says they are not normal in society. They will not tolerate a system that does. Barry

My pack cut out the Tiger program after I left and had just as many scouts five years later. Requires a little more recruiting for wolves, but the benefits of less adult burnout are worth it. Even while I was there we required so little of the Tigers that our numbers increased. This subject is my number one complaint of the BSA.

What about orientation of the scouts? Barry

Yes, you are correct. New staffs of every course have different experiences, goals and approaches to the material provided. I think this is why the WB course before 2000 was abandoned, the staffs got so far away from the objective of the course that it became negative training in some instances. But this is a problem with every training course from unit level to council. Consistency has to be controlled by the training chairman. I've said before that if you want to change a trend among the units in a district or council, change the training chairman because training is where units learn and develop trends. The more a trainer gets away from the material of the course, the more units run into policy and proceedure issues. It is a challenge to develop a course that everyone understands the objective. I created and run a boy run council Junior Leadership Development course that was well liked and considered very successful. But we eventually killed it because it required a good understanding of the boy run concept and very experienced adult troop leaders, which just can't be guaranteed. If a volunteer with one year experience can't be expected to run a course in the BSA, it isn't practical for long term use. Hard lesson learned on my part. Barry

The problem with WB is that the trainers don't understand why the teach the material. The reason tickets loose sight of the objective of running a more boy run program is because the staff approves those tickets. If the staff doesn't get it, how can the participants? You think that would change on a more ground level approach to scouting? I had the responsibility of approving tickets once and I was able to control ticket goals, but very few adults really do get it. In fact, very very few adults understand a ground level boy run program. Some of us here on this forum are legends in our own mind when it comes to a boy run and we don't agree on some specific aspects. So, I don't think you will ever see or get the WB of your dreams. Personally I like the management style of WB because it focuses on setting goals and team building, which I believe are the main causes of broken programs at the three cub, troop and Venture levels. Especially at the Cub and venture levels. If you want to teach more specific basics, then create training that gets more specific. As for what to expect from National in the next couple of years, I shudder to think. I've been very disappointed a lot lately because their changes don't seem to appeal to the heart of ground level scouting. Barry