Eagledad

And this is likely the result. 7 out of 10 Venture (Venturing) Crews fail in their first five years because the adults burn out. I've always looked at that statistic as a failure of the program overall. But maybe I need to think outside the box. Maybe disposable scouting is ok and should be supported for what it is. After all that five years might be a life changing experience for many of those scouts. Hmm, I will think on that. Barry

Please NJ, give me a list of these kids that were kicked out. Shesh, talk about revisionist history. As much as you want to paint the BSA as this bad program, it was one of the most inclusive organizations for kids. Ironically less kids today will participate than during the bad years you like to impress on everyone. Barry

That was a very good reply Eamonn and reflective of a typical well run district. One thing that I learned about districts is that they set the tone for how the units run their programs. We talk here a lot about units being left alone and doing their own thing if the district would just get out of the way. But, there are very few adults that can just step into running a unit successfully without some passing of knowledge. There has to be (should be) a known common approach to guiding units toward the common goal of success. Without even getting into the information given in each training course, you would be surprised how much influence the training committee has on unit programs. Truth is only 10 percent of units are independent enough to do their thing without some outside guidance. The training committee is the most common method for tying all units together as a district. All districts teach the same syllabuses, but all district training committees have their own specific personalities and expectations. I used to teach adults at Wood Badge that if they want to change common bad habits at a unit level, get on the district training committee. I know this by experience. Also, few people really respect the power of the Key 3 leadership. The personality of the Key 3 sets the general tone of how units will run their program. And, I personally believe that the District Commissioner is the key person of the influence. A good DC will handle the DE and use him to the Districts best advantage with the council, as well as guiding the District Committee Chairman to managing the district chairman. Plus, the DC has one other big advantage and that is the army of UCs to help tract unit programs and shape unit performance, OR NOT. Good or bad, I beleive in most cases that the quality of units in a district are the reflection of the District Commissioner. District Commissioners rarely get the credit they deserve (good or bad) because they work in the shadows of all the other chairs and leaders. To me it’s not a chicken or egg concept with District and units. The district is simply the higher level of expectation and quality performance of units. Without the district, the unit is only as good as their best leader. But the district has the responsibility of setting expectations and guiding the units to perform. They have the power if they just use it correctly. Barry

I took it that the can of worms was her church leadership. Barry

Hmm, so it's all on the boys. I don't know stosh, there are a lot of successful boy run troops around. Sometimes failure is the result of adult leaders just doing it wrong. Not all adults have what it takes to run a troop. Obviously nobody here can know how you really run your program, but even the best of us change and tune our programs to meet the boys needs. Barry

We had several LDS scouts in our troop because they didn't like the way the LDS troop was run. Barry

Sounds like your scout just wanted a break from responsibility. You have never agreed when I’ve said this before Stosh, but the nature of boys before puberty is to hang in groups and play games. Leadership takes them out of the group and away from the games even when they are leading in the games. It is not the same thing. Prepubescent boys are the opposite of loners, they need to be unidentifiable among the members of the group. I learned this from my Child Psychologist SM buddy. And after working with hundreds of scouts, I agree. These boys don't have the leadership mentality in them yet because instinctively they don't like to be separated from the group, especailly in a boy run group. From a nature perspective, being set apart exposes them to danger. In contemporary reality they don't get to play the games with their friends. Adults try to compensate these scouts with complements and rewards for the extra burden. That works for a while, but eventually the stress catches up and they rebel some way or another. I used to counsel adults of new troops with young scouts to shorten the scouts time in leadership so they get the experience without getting into burnout. It’s tough to say how long that is, but the boys will start to express their weariness of the responsibility in one way or another. I tell them, when a scout dreads coming to meetings, he has had enough. I understand your philosophy of letting scouts lead until they want to hand it off, but the maturity of this age makes it difficult for them to independently make these kinds of decisions and they certainly don’t want to disappoint the adults. The adults have to be conscious of the scouts experience and compensate until the scouts reach a maturity where they make the decisions on their own. Starting a new troop with young scouts is very hard. Adults HAVE TO LEARN more faster than the scouts to keep up. Barry

I think most SMs and SPLs would like to meet the scout and his family of who is making this type of request. I certainly would have a few questions for your family. One suggestion would be for your son to call and request a meeting between your family, the SM and SPL at their next troop meeting. This would provide the time and place for everyone to meet each other and see the troop in action at the same time. Barry

I always had good luck with Eagles because they know scout skills and have a general idea of the boys side of the program. They are much more patient with the boys because they know there is more to scouting than leading and advancement. Barry

Isn't it interesting that you didn't find the doctor comparison odd. I wasn't comparing anybody, I think most folks got that. I was giving examples to support the point that our reputation is just as much an influence to others as our actions. Some here are implying that whether or not someone's personal life is known or not, their image is only what they project personally in front of the group, which of course isn't true. I also have gay friends, relatives, and coworkers, I don't understand what your point was there. And I guess using the word evil was just an emotional vent to be condescending, but I'm confident you just didn't kick your kids out the door and wish them the best of luck. By the way, I'm about to be a grandpa, so I'm past guessing and experimenting with raising a family and into reflecting my observations and life experiences. Barry

You only have to see a gay pride parade to understand that is a sexual issue. Being identified as gay or homosexual is an automatic tag of sexuality. A SM who is a known KKK member doesn't have to say a word about racism to be publicly tagged a racist. A SM who is a doctor may never say a word about his private life, but because of his reputation, he would likely be called on first with an injury during a troop activity. Our reputations are very much part of role modelling. We risk our kids everyday by the roll models they interact with. As parents, it behooves us to protect our kids from being influenced by people who model behaviors we believe are dangerous. Just because we may not feel some behaviors are risky doesn't mean we shouldn't respect those parents who do. Barry

No, but many young adults go through times in their lives where they are very mixed up and might try things in their struggles. The community is supposed to protect our kids during these times by holding a generalized expectation for our youth, but we live in times now where anything goes. Didn't the Girls Scouts just admit a 6 year old cross dresser or something like that? My personal opinion is that situation is bad parenting and the community shouldn't role acceptance of it. Those who spend time in the bible will tell you that there is a lot said about the boundaries of sexuality because it is a very powerful force. It wouldn't take much for someone very confused about their life to be mislead. Barry

It's entertaining to me that this role modeling stuff seems to go right over your heads. Studies have shown that kids who come from divorced homes are more likely to divorce when they become adults. Kids who are around smokers are more likely to smoke and kids who come from homes of drug users are more likely to use drugs. Is that so surprising? Roll models do have an effect on those who observe them in one way of the other. One can't prevent our kids from being exposed to all people who exhibit dangerous behaviors, but most parents try. Now I can understand that many believe homosexuality is normal by birth, but to many others homosexual acts are not normal by birth and are very dangerous behaviors. Barry

Good post CP. Some of the Den leaders in our area ask the school if their den could raise and lower the flag for them before or after school. I've never watched them do it, but the Den leaders say the boys have a lot of fun. I imagine since there is no audience, they could raise and lower it several times. I know a few our dens over the years did perform for audiences in our community, but I can't recall where because I was never able to attend. While I was in the pack, two of our 2nd year Webelos were assigned to be responsible for the opening and closing ceremonies at each pack gathering. They had two 1st year Webelos assist and observe them so they would know what to do next year. Since each den got the chance to be the color guard at a Pack meeting, the Webelos responsibility was to teach them how to perform the ceremony and help the den where ever they needed. The scouts showed up one hour early so the Webelos could do the training. Always went pretty well and the parents loved taking pictures of their sons doing it. Every scout in the pack was part of the color guard at least once every year. Sometimes the Tigers were so small that it might take two of them to hold each flag. Our pack had a tradition that when the Color Guard leaders commanded "Audience Attention!", "Color Guard Attention!", the den doing the ceremony would shout their Den yell as they came to attention. It was fun to watch. Our troop took that idea and the color guard would come up with some new clever saying at each Troop meeting. It help make the ceremony more fun. Barry

From the handbook. 2e: Learn how to raise a US flag properly for an outdoor ceremony. 2f: Participate in an outdoor flag ceremony. 2g: With the help of another person, fold the flag. Notes: These three can be done together, or folding the flag can be done separately, indoors. If you meet at a place with a flagpole, like an school, ask permission to practice with their flag. You can have an outdoor flac ceremony with your Den, you don't need to wait for a Pack meeting. Barry

Our pack does at least four outdoor Pack meetings and campfires a year with a flag ceremony performed at each. Stretching that out a bit, our local baseball team usually has scout day where every boy who dresses in his uniform is given free admittance. Any scout from tiger to Venture will have exercised the actions stipulated in the requirement if they attend any one of those activities. I can easily think of more, but you understand what I'm saying. Is that what National had in mind for the Bear Scout's special experience? Who knows, but shouldn't their experience be a bit more more than the other scouts who are just attending? Just an aside, every den in our pack gets to participate with the color guard at least one meeting every year. Not because of any requirement, but just for the fun of it. Barry

I have never heard or seen of participating being interpreted as just being part of the audience. That to me is putting the focus on advancement and not the adventure of scouting. Scouting is supposed to be fun, don't shortchange that experience by short cutting advancement requirements. Instead be cleaver in finding opportunities to enhance experience. Give the boys memories of special moments that they can only get in their scouting program. Give them a reason to brag to their friends of what they are doing in their scouting program. Barry

If you really want to impress the scouts, call the SM to ask for the SPLs number so you can ask him if it is ok.

Ken was being helpful, he is not your enemy. What does the bible say about pride and humility? Barry

I've said before that its the adults who get flustered, not the scouts with pop in visits. This discussion kind of supports that. I'm not proposing that a troop risk showing its worst side and I'm not even really suggesting a troop show off its typical program. For me its just staying out of the way of our scouts' scheduled program. It is hard enough for the scouts to run an all year program with the normal issues that pop up, now we want to add "Webelos Day"? I had to laugh when stosh says he trains his scouts for surprise visits. He trains them to do what? What I think he really means is that his scouts are prepared for visitors anytime they visit with a set of procedures, same as ours. Our SPL has a policy to meet the Webs and parents at the door and introduce himself. Then he mixes the Webelos in with the Patrols. After the flag ceremony, he pulls the parents together to briefly explain the program and answer questions for about 5 minutes. Then the SM takes the parents and further explains the program and answer questions while the SPL goes off to his normal duties. It has very little interruption to the normal program and really none to the PLs. My point is that it is a lot easier for our scouts to not plan some kind of special Webelos visit program and just work with visitors when they pop in. Same goes with campouts, the program isn't going to change. The PLC just works the visitors in as best they can. We once had a den pop in on our rappelling campout. They couldn't rappel with our scouts because they missed all the training the previous month, but observing our scouts in actions was still exciting for them. And a couple of our adults knew of a nearby location where the Webelos could do some rock climbing for their level of maturity and experience. They left before dinner and joined our troop a month later. Again, no sweat off the scouts to cater to the Webelos because they ran their normal program. Barry

Well I guess our troop is the only one that uses kevlar. Everyone can carry a kevlar and it is not only easier to pickup, but it goes through the water easier. Yes, users have to be more careful, we but have never damaged one. Barry

I've told this story before, but at the Blue and Gold Banquet of my first year as a Cub Master, I was chatting with the Webelos who were crossing over into a troop that night and I asked them why they chose that troop. They said because they had the best game at the troop meetings. 80% of those boys dropped out of scouting by the end of that year. I'm not a big fan of coaching scouts to ask a lot of questions at troop visits because boys this age like to feel the experience, not analyze it with an accumulation of facts. Oh, they should ask a couple questions that give them an idea of what to expect like: “what is the most fun thing you do in this troop and what are the best camp outs?â€. AND, “what is the worst part of the troop?â€. Webelos don’t really understand boy run or merit badge mills or whatever, but they are experts in fun. Encourage them to get a feel if the troop is fun and why. But searching for a troop should be a team effort with the adults and the boys working together. Most scouts who picked a troop without the help of adults quit in their first year. So the adults need to ask the structural questions that fill in the details of the cogs, pulleys and gears that move the troop from point A to point B. But you don’t have shoot a borage of questions at the SM like a machine gun. Some questions just don’t need to be asked. For example does any troop leader think their troop is not boy run or that they are a merit badge mill? We can’t even agree on boy run programs on this forum, so is it realistic for a parent to understand what they are asking or learn much by the answers? Instead ask what I think is on the mind of most parents "how will you get my son his eagle?". I know it’s on their minds because that was asked of me by every group that ever visited us, and it was the hardest question for me to answer. But, you can learn a lot about the troop by that one question like, Do they do advancement in the troop program or wait until summer camp? Do they have a set agenda for each scout reaching rank or is the scout guided to plan his own agenda? And usually the answers will lead to other pertinent questions. Another good question is: "Give us an example of how a camp out is planned from its creation to loading the cars on Friday night?". The answer to that question will tell you how much the adults and boys involved in the planning and running of the troop from annual planning down to the PLC meeting. And the answer will lead you to ask other key questions like: who plans the meals, when? Who buys the meals? Who cooks the meals? The answers to all those questions will give you a feel for roles of the adults and scouts in the program. “What do you expect from the parents?â€. That should provide answers to training, committee, who camps, who drives, who leads and so on. And there is one question that is rarely mentioned but I find is really important, “How long is the present leadership expected to stay with the troop?â€. Fact is most programs have some noticeable changes after the adult leadership changes and I have seen sooooo many program loose half their membership in the first year as a result. If the SM plans to leave in the next few months, you want to know. By the same token, I notice stosh presented his resume to the OP but he didn’t say how big his troop is. 10 scouts joining a troop of 100 is no big deal. 10 scouts joining a troop of six is no longer the troop that the Webelos visited. A troop that increases by 50% is basically starting all over. So you can learn a lot about the maturity and organizing of the troop by asking them how many new scouts they are expecting and what is their plan for dealing with the increase numbers?â€. Oh, the big question in this discussion, should you call a head? Many troops change their program for visitors, so I like unannounced visits, but I do give them one days’ notice. One day allows the SPL to be ready without giving enough time to change the program agenda. Truth of the matter is the scouts usually do OK with unannounced visits, it’s the adults that get flustered. I once watched an ASM go into a tirade with the SPL because of the stress of 16 Webelos and their parents watching their program. Campouts visits are really good too, in fact I think they are better. Learn the schedule of a troop and pick a campout you would like to visit to see the troop in action. You don’t have to spend the night, just a few hours on Saturday will help a lot. Maybe even stay for dinner. And I wouldn’t give them more than a weeks’ notice because that would give them enough time to change the agenda. Many troops have a specific weekend scheduled every year for Webelos visits and it is usually pretty good program. But you want to see a typical campout, not one that is designed to entertain Webelos. As I said, it is usually the adults that over react to the surprise visits, so the smart SM lets the PLC handle it. I did and they never disappointed me. Good luck and have fun with it. Barry

A member of our church saw the troop trailer (not my troop) being pulled down the highway by someone without any scouts. She knew it was the troop trailer of her church because it was painted in bright orange with the troop number and church in BIG letters. She called the SM and verified it wasn't being used by the troop, then called the highway patrol and followed the trailer until the thief was pulled over. Our troop has had three trailers stolen over the years. The hardest lesson was to learn that even though the church is the owner, they will not insure them. The trailer is now chained to a light pole in the middle of the parking lot exposed to the world. If it were up to me, I would also have the Quarter master remove a wheel and lock one of the studs. Barry

Oh come on, my very Christian, church active, CPA, wife who deals with the IRS A LOT, had no trouble helping the families with individual scout accounts. The families are told up front that the funds are used only for scouting activities and will stay with the troop when they leave. Only once did a family request the funds go with them because they transferred to another troop. We actually didn't mind, but that is where our CPA Treasure (very lovely wife) suggested we not start down that path. From her perspective, it is troop funds being divied out to the scouts for troop activities. Once we let the scouts take it with them for any reason, that is where the problems start. Districts and Counsils will only get involved is the COs asked them, otherwise they don't have a clue about individual unit funds and they like it that way. Most COs would rather not get in the middle of it either unless it is something substantial like a trailer of storage building. But in this discussion, likely the individual accounts and troop property will become the responsibility the CO. Barry