Eagledad

Without theism, what are scouting's values? My religion guides the actions of friendly, courteous, and kind. I imagine most do. Barry

The problem could very well be with the troop leaders. I try to use these situations as opportunities to improve myself for the next time. Obviously this parent doesn't have quite the understanding of the program that she should have. What can I do better to help her, and parents like her, have a better understanding of the program, and what can I do to prevent this situation with new parents in the future? Then I make some changes. These situations helped me grow into a better scouter. Barry

This is exactly how I did it many times. The tone of the discussion is coming off a little hostile, but it's really about teaching the parents about the troop vision for the scouts and how the program works toward that vision. I can remember one family that chose to join another troop because they realize their vision and ours were different. Barry

It is interesting how this discussion has gone full circle with using girls to add membership to the BSA. If that is what it takes the save the BSA, then the program is doomed anyway. Yes, the Canadian Scouts were hit hard by a lot of issues, mostly from national politics. But my point is that adding girls did not enhance their numbers. And if it did, can you imagine how badly the program was for addition of girls to hold the number at 40 percent. Sadly the BSA is going through its own cultural dilution. Before the admission of gays, I had a pretty good knowledge and understanding of where the BSA membership was going. Admission of gays changed the dynamics so much that I don't think anybody including National knows were the membership is going now, except down. As for comparing against European Scouts, that is a wrong comparison because our cultures are so different. We can't begin to use them as a model for how it would work in North America. And, are they really growing? Who knows. Bringing in girls basically to raise the membership is the wrong motivation because it will change the program a lot and not likely for the better. As I said, if bringing in girls to the troop program reduces the quality of the program for boys at all, it's not worth it. It's not like we don't have scouting programs for girls. The Campfire Kids is also a very nice program with a lot of outdoor program. I think we should focus on giving our sons the best program we possibly can and I haven't seen anything convincing that adding girls would give us the present level of performance we have to today. Barry

As I said before, this is the same justification that was being use by many for allowing gays in scouts. Many of us knew that changing the policy to accepting gays was not the solution for increasing membership because we only had to look at the history of the Girl Scouts, Campfire Kids and Canadian Scouts to see how it effected their program. So by using history as an example in this case, we can look at the Campfire Kids and Canadian Scouts for peek into the future. I'm not exactly sure where the Campfire Kids number are at now, but I know they are well below what membership was before the accepted boys. And the Canadian Scouts is but a shell of what the numbers where in 1990 (I think around 40%) before they started admitting, well just about everybody. So I think we can conclude that simply inviting everybody and their pet in the program does not mean numbers will increase. In fact, history shows the opposite. So whats at the heart of the declining numbers. Well it is difficult to say at the moment with the huge policy change to accept gays. We will just have to see how that sorts out, but there has been a lot of talk of program issues that could help change the trend like reducing the demand on the adults in the Cub Scout program. Of course it could also be that a Youth Outdoor Adventure program is seeing the end of its days in this culture and the decline to natural level is inevitable. If that is the case, lets at least hold the quality of boys side of the program to the present level for those boys who do choose to participate. Barry

You are applying your observations of post puberty behavior with pre-puberty boys. It is not the same. Nature has wired us to learn about 90% of our behavior from observing others by the time we reach puberty. That is why role modeling is so important at that age. In fact, it is important for both genders to have good role models of the same gender so that they see themselves in their role models. How we learn after puberty is different, so it isn’t as important. Barry

And what has been learned is that coed education is not equal between the genders because they learn differently. One of them always gets the short end of the stick. How the genders behave socially in coed groups depends largely from instinct. Human nature drives each gender to socialize in groups away from the other gender because they are each developing their own instinctive behavior. Girls tend to practice nurturing in their play while boys tend to practice a more aggressive style for the future of providing food and protection (survival). Nature eventually takes care of coed socialization at the appropriate time through puberty. Take a lesson from what we see from the schools, don't mess with Mother Nature. Barry

It's not that I don't think they can't, it's that they can't do it and maintain the quality of the program today. I think I explain the reasoning pretty well in the other post. Barry

The outdoors and scout skills part isn't really an issue, the adults who are up for outdoor adventure usually get up to speed fast enough. The adults who don't care for it usually hang back. Summer camp is the exception and we try to cater to them best we can. It's the values and vision part of the program that is hard to get adults up to speed. I look back and there were several approaches that we eventually developed to get adults up to speed. First we taught them the vision of the program and how each activity worked toward that goal. When I was working for district guiding struggling programs, I found that 90% of units struggled because the adults didn't have or understand what they working towards. Everybody was jumping around trying to do jobs that suddenly had to get done. So the first thing we did was discuss the objective of the unit program and work it down to a one or two sentence vision. Then I suggested they volunteer for specific responsiblities for that vision. Most of the time I only needed to stand back and watch the team develop. If this sounds kind of familure, this is the basis for Wood Badge. But it's a lot easier to get up to speed for specific responsibility. Second, we exposed our adults to the scout activities with an explanation of how the scouts' actions worked toward the vision. I've said many times that a good SM spends at least 50% of his time working with the adults. We scheduled new adult gathering times at meeting and camp outs to specifically observe the scouts, then give a explanation of how their actions worked torward growth in the areas of fitness, citizenship and character. I would request from the SPL a few minutes to observe their PLC meeting. That always brought a lot of questions. Our adults are required to earn the totin chit because that is how I introduce the parents to our trust of boy run. No other adults attend the class accept for the new parents. It's all taught by the scouts. The key to this is expose them to as much as possible with an adult who can explain the value of what they are seeing. The faster the new adults learn how the patrol method works, the faster they understand their responsibilities and boundaries within the program. Have an open door to questions and challenges to your program. Always be respectful of the person asking and answer with a firm justification for the vision. OR, thank the person for pointing out an area of the program that needs attention. The programs that are most resistant to change are the ones that think they are perfect, even while their program is crumbling all around them. It's an amazing thing to see actually and Ive even seen several such programs over the years just on this forum. But nothing helps the new guy feel accepted faster that being respected for their individual contribution to the program, even if that contribution is not accepted because it doesn't fit. It is taught in my faith that a healthy community develops best on the fertile ground of humility instead of the hard rock of pride. Our scouts observe this as well. The third year is time that separates the passionate scouters like most of here on this forum from the ones who just wanted to give less than an hour. Sadly, only 5% of us are passionate enough to put up with the crap that drives the rest of them away. So build the program around those 95%, not the 5% of us. This is what I've been saying about the cub program. Right now the cub program fits best for the passionate 5%. It drives the other 95% away. i love scouting stuff. Barry

Ah I see what you are saying desertrat, but we we are talking about two separate situations. And I'm saying that if the BSA allows girls, your daughter might get the program you suggest, but her daughter won't. Nor will her son. Everyone would be better off investing their time and money into Campfire Kids. Barry

Sorry, I misunderstood your question and honestly still don't quite understand it. If you were to visit our troop while I was the SM, I'm curious what part you would think wasn't traditional. My point is that when 3/4 of new scouters who join the program every day have no experience or knowledge of the BSA outdoor program and vision, the BSA will have to change to accommodate their ignorance of the program just to keep the program functional. . Remember, The new series of training courses published by national in 2000 was a reaction to the admittance of women leaders in troops in 1990. I'm saying admitting girls will accelerate that situation even faster and it won't accelerate toward the traditional side of scouting. Admitting girls will quietly take the outing out of scouting in the BSA. Barry

Your personal observations are different from mind. Volunteers who leave the program and adults who don't join at are part of the pool of all available adults in the community, not just specific groups like old timers and outdoorsmen. And the problem is a cultural trend where parents have less time with their families and as a result are changing their time priorities. I'm not sure of the solution, I'm sure the cause is more complicated than one easy change. Many here know that I think the Cub program is way to hard for the average parent to manage and needs trim down so it doesn't burn out its adults. But my suggestion is a bit contriversal because I propose scaling the program down by removing or at least splitting off the Tigers program. But this is a different discussion that should start with a new title. Barry

Yes! Not because they are a female, but because the number of inexperienced volunteers tripled. Before the BSA accepted women volunteers, 1 out of 4 volunteers didn't have a scouting experience. Now it's roughly 3 out of 4. You said it yourself, it takes three years of training AND experience to be a good leader. Most volunteers with a youth experience are running as soon as their feet hit the ground. The average volunteer without a scouting experience is three years behind a volunteer with experience. And it's more than that, experienced volunteers understand the fun side of scouting. The little things that aren't in the manuals. They bring in and support traditions that make the experience extra special. One of the best traditions I see going away in today's troops are camp fires. Adults today didn't experience the benefits of them, so they don't understand the value of them and are letting them go because the scouts don't enjoy them. They don't enjoy them because they are doing them wrong. And boy run has lost its meaning as well. One SM on this forum basically defines boy run as kicking scouts out in the woods and not participating unless the scouts ask for help. Experienced scout masters know how to inject a little spice to the experience. inexperienced volunteers are short sighted because the don't understand the long range vision from a scouts perspective. They tend to drive program torward tangible targets like rank and advancement because those are easy to measure the quality of the efforts. But experienced scouters understand the value of free time, camp fires, and games. I once got a call from the new SM of a new troop who called me after their sixth camp out and said his scouts were getting bored on the camp outs. He admitted they only worked on scout skills all day long. When I asked about free time, it never occurred to him to let scouts have unstructured time on their own. The thought of it scared him because they would just get in trouble. The number one complaint about Girl Scouts is they do very little camping. Well Da!, 98% of their leaders are women and it's fair to guess that 85% or more of them have a little camping experience. And my experience with female leaders from both programs is most aren't very excited to get that experience. A few are gung ho, but it's not the majority. Because of my reputation for working with struggling programs, I was asked to help a new troop in a different council. The troop had 8 unexperienced volunteers. When I observed the troop meeting, the adults performed the opening flag ceremony. Actually the did the whole ceremony. They explained that the scouts weren't mature enough to do the opening themselves, so they were doing it until they felt the boys had the maturity. I have many such examples. And now we're are discussing of adding more girls, which will increase the number of inexperienced volunteers to the program. Inexperienced volunteers are choking the tradition part of the program out of boy scouting. The part that so many here say makes the BSA a better program. That is my reasoning behind my original statement. And God bless you for your hard work. Many troops are struggling to find enough volunteers to run their program. But that is a different problem and a different discussion. Barry

Issues and Politics discussions aren't listed on the Latest Post column (why is that?) and many folks don't like to go into the Issues and Politics forum discussions because their tone are sometimes unfriendly. So putting a discussion here is like hiding it in a mushroom cave. Girls in the BSA discussions comes up about every three months and aren't typically informative because the opinions are usually based by emotion and political correctness. This discussion actually had some balance pragmatic information that folks could actually form opinions based from reason. It was a good discussion. Oh well. Barry

Makes no sense to me NJ. Where past discussions have gone should have no bearing on this or another discussion and just about all discussions all over the boards have some issues type comments mixed in. This discussion was pretty much about program. It was very educational because thoughts and opinions were based from actual scouting experiences and observations, not emotional bias. And the participants did a good job keeping it on track and balanced. Your moderating intruded and it is not obvious to me why. I'm not sure you even know why, but something. Barry

Interesting, where did it cross?

No, actually they are fully cooperating. There has been an unwritten longtime agreement by the two organizations to stay away from each others memberships. That is why I'm not worried about the BSA changing it's policy to accept girls. Still, this has been one of the best intellectual discussion on this subject I've ever seen on this forum. For the most part, emotion and political correctness has been left out leaving the benefits and repercussions as the main topic. Also what has been left out is how the adult side will comform to such a change. As I said, I don't think it would go very well because it would encourage more unscout (outdoor activities) like adults to lead the youth into a less scout like program. One of the bigger challenges of a Cub pack is getting good Webelos leaders who want to bring more outdoor skills into the program to get the Webelos ready for a troop program. The reason that is a challenge is because the majority of the Wolf/Bear leaders don't have that kind of experience and don't really want it. Those same adults are the majority of leaders in today's Girl Scout Troops, That is the huge challenge the BSA would have to contend with when bringing in girls. And honestly I don't think there are enough girls who are demanding a boy scout type program to take the risk. As I said I'm pretty selfish about this, if bringing in girls has ANY negative effect on the boys side of the program, then it's a bad deal for the BSA and a bad deal for my son. I'm not willing to compromise a good program just provide a better program for a few girls. Some of you folks have provided some really good stuff in this discussion. But I have seen nothing that makes feel admitting girls would be a benefit for the boys. But it is a really good discussion and I'm listening. Barry

But they don't mind. Instead of feeling guilty, consider instead that you are providing them a wonderful opportunity to show their support and respect. Now that all my kids are married, I like to give. I like to see the smiles on the scouts' faces. It's fun. Last year my wife came home to $70 worth of cookies and knew what had just happened. A cute little thing too shy to really say anything knocked on my door on one very cooled day. While she was trying to sputter a few words, I look up at mom who was standing (freezing) in the street with a red wagon full of cookies. I told the little girl to give me five boxes of everything. I don't know who was happier, mom or her daughter. I once bought $40 worth of popcorn from a scout and told him to keep it to make another $40. I WANT TO GIVE, I just need an excuse and someone to knock on my door! Now, does fund raising build character? When we first started our troop, we had no equipment, so the first couple years of scouts spent a lot of time fun raising. Without going into the details, the PLC a few years later wanted the troop to do more fundraisers because it had become obvious that scouts who did't earn the funds for the equipment they were using didn't have the same respect for the care of it. Sometimes fundraising isn't about the money. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Which goes back to the adults driving the unit. I have said several times before that I believe the main reason scouting is going away from the traditional outdoor program is because fewer volunteers today have the experience of a traditional scouting program and don't understand the value of it. Adding girls would increase the likelyhood of adults with similar backgrounds to build even less traditional Boy Scout patrol method programs. I assisted Troops in our area with volunteers that no scouting experience and it was amazing the differences between their expectations and the simple activities of experienced units. Adding girls would be a major change, so we should assume and consider that there would be major repercussions, good and bad. Barry

Thanks for the correction, but it doesn't change my point. Barry

It's not about the girls. The mission of the BSA is to develop boys into moral and ethical decision makers. Would allowing girls into the troops have a negative affect on that mission for our sons? As the father of a daughter who was in the Girls Scouts, I appreciate the motivation for improving their experience. But I would not support the merge in anyway if it reduces the quality of the boys program. I don't think many folks including me expected much of a change to the program when women were accepted into the the troop program. But after observing the program for the last 20 or so years, I believe that policy has devastated the quality of the program simply because it tripled the number of inexperienced volunteers. Are you willing to sacrifice your sons experience to get something a little better for your daughter? Barry

These are exactly the same words that were used over and over to justify allowing gays. If this is to be a serious discussion, it needs to about how adding girls would affect the quality of the boys program, not about about trying to fix the membership decline. After all, the girls do have their own national scouting program, so it's not about them. Barry

Great ideas. I found that PR is limited by the imagination of the leaders. I always felt that Scouting For Food is one of our best PR opportunities because the scouts get to personally meet the public one house at a time. I know our Cub Scouts had a wonderful time going door to door asking for donations because they met (and saw) some of the most interesting people. And visa versa, most folks seem to enjoy meeting these very young boys doing service work. BUT, the Council wanted to do Scouting For Food even bigger and better, so they decided scouts should just leave bags at the door with instructions to fill the bags and leave them on the patio to be picked up on another arranged day. The process left the meeting of the scouts and public out. And honestly, less food was brought in as well. I manage to change that process in our district, but not council. Another idea is for the Troops to camp at their CO at least once a year. We did this back when I was a young scout and I remember the congregation of the CO church visiting the campsite after service and talking to the scouts. At first I thought it boring, but when an adult really wants to learn about your experience as a scout and see how you live in a tent, it turned out to be very cool. For those Troops that don't have COs with appropriate camp sites, local parks and fields. There are so many ways to bring the public to the program. I once presented the idea to do the District Camporee at the local park. The idea was for all the patrols to camp Friday night at their CO location, then pack up the next morning and back pack to the park stopping for skills competitions along the way. The whole town would be busy with scout skills activities and Scouts hiking around by patrol in their pack packing gear. All locals would be invited to the campfire presented at the football field with a band finishing the evening. One day maybe. As I said, it is just a matter of using the imagination. Barry

No, not for me. The older scouts are the key to a successful troop program. Prepubescent boys learn most of their behavior and skills by watching their older roll models. Taking the older scout roll models out of the program retards the younger scouts maturity and forces a more school room like approach for teaching younger scouts. It's much harder to be boy run because the adults have to step in more often to push the scouts out of the learning ruts. That being said, most Venturing Crews are started as a result of failed older scout programs in troops. The theory from these adults is that the boys will stay in the program longer for the adventure. The problem with that model is that the adults who failed to build a successful older scout troop program are the same adults who are going to build the Venturing Crew. They don't understand what motivates boys to succeed and they fail just as miserably with the crew as they did with the Troop. I believe that MattR has proven himself with a successful troop program and is capable of building a successful Crew. Barry

Wow!