Eagledad

I was just curious how your troop does it since you say the NSP scouts get up to speed faster with troop's organization. The Patrol Leaders are the first line of working with new scouts in our troop, Not a big thing, just curious. Barry

Sometimes the chorus grows quieter because some members are driven off by the attack and harsh tone from other members. I very much believe this was cause of loosing some many member in the last couple years. I personally don't believe a member should need thick skin to participate. Many folks here are not only brand new to the forum, they are brand new to scouting. When an inexperienced leader ask for help with a question that sets them up to be attacked, then its gone too far. I have seen that occur a lot on this forum. I get the feeling that the mods are watching that a lot closer and they have my support. I want the new Bear Den leader to feel safe asking ANY question in this forum. Barry

Just out of curiosity, who gets them up to speed with the troop's organization and how do they do that? Barry

I have a lot of experience over a lot of years all around the subject of new scouts, new scout patrols, and how to work these young men into the troop. Let me first say if you were to ask me if keeping a new scout with his friends was the method, I would say yep, NSP all the way. But experience has changed me. Boys don’t gravitate toward boys their age, they gravitate toward others with common interest. The only reason we think of gravitating with the den is because that has been their environment for three years or so. OK, that is fair. But lets use the example of eight Webelos going to their first troop meeting to be put in a patrol. The SM stands the Webelos in front of the troop of 50 strangers and says: “you can pick any patrol you want, or you can start your own patrolâ€. Do those scouts really have a choice? Not really, but it still might be the best choice. Now lets consider that three of the Webelos are bullies and the other five have been biting at the bullet to get away from the bullies. The five scouts are bit shy and they are very afraid of saying anything that would upset the bullies. They look at the 50 strangers they never met of which they know nothing about, then they look at the three bullies. Do they have a choice? Rock and hard place? There is likely at least one Webelos in just about every den that does not want to be with the whole den. That is my experience and opinion of boys gravitating. We’ve tried several different patrol styles and NSP styles. I’m pretty sure I can relate to just about everyone here and their chosen method. From our experience, the best method for getting the new scouts into the troop with the least resistance and happiest scouts was when we assigned scouts to a patrol. We don’t typically do that, but we were trying to find a process that worked better than what had done in previous years. And let me just say, it is the greatest hassle on the PLC because they have to identify with each scout personally to find the right fit. It is the hardest route for the troop by far. BUT once the scouts were in their patrols, everyone one was happy including the Patrol leaders. We found that most new scouts aren’t that big on being with all their den mates, most have one or two friends they are especially close with and that was all they needed. Really, we never had a single new scout complain that they wanted to be with other friends. That is not how we do it every year because circumstances change every year. If we have more new scouts than 2 per patrol, we usually do a NSP with the expectation that the new scouts will be assimilated into the patrols after summer camp. When we get a lot of new scouts, we might do buddy patrols with the NSP so the buddy patrol can help with the Troop Guide. That works ok, but it challenges the 300 ft separation rule. I just don’t like getting that many new scouts, but I guess that is a good problem. Also, we never let the new scouts be Patrol Leaders like the BSA model suggest. Our Patrol Leaders work hard and have a lot of responsibility, so the experience doesn’t do anything new scouts who really just want to do the outdoor adventure stuff. I’m all about role models, so let the TGs be role models. We always ask for volunteers to be TGs and they are usually Life or Eagle 16 or older scouts. Folks here have heard me say before that I have never seen a good 14 or younger TG, nor have I ever seen 15 or older bad one. Maturity is everything with TGs. Now saying all that, I really believe a troop has to search and find what works for them. We have great experiences here and can explain why some work for us and why some don’t. But I looking back, every new class of scouts was a little different and required some changes to make it work well. The BSA looses more scouts in the first year troop age than any other age. That is why they started the NSP/TG program. But, statistic show that even after 20, the rate is about the same. What that means is the problem isn’t as much about the patrol experience as it is about going from an adult guided environment (parents) to a boy guided environment where the boys are expected to not only make their own decisions, but live with them. I wanted to fix the crossover and first year losses problem, so I interviewed a lot of scouts and their parents to find out why their leaving and how to fix it. The problem is simple, but the solution of getting scouts comfortable with the idea that the 13 year old patrol leader was now going to basically feed and protect them in the dark woods where creatures lurk. That is the best way I can say it. To keep those boys, it’s not as much about their patrol as it is easing them into a change of life philosophy. They are boys anymore, they are expected to behave and think like men. That is A LOT on a 10 year old boy, and that is why more boys quit scouting that year than any other year. Barry

This is a good post. We went through a few years where our scouts were the OA lodge chiefs and many of the officers. They put in a ton of time in those positions and I certainly gave them a credit as well as praise. The lodge adviser made sure to let me know that there was a reason that our scouts kept getting selected for officers and chief. But you are right in pointing out the outside responsibilities of these scouts. They should be credited for their leadership in the community, especially when the community recognizes them. I got a call from a parent telling me that 5 of the scouts in our troop were selected as leaders by the high school student body. I had never heard of this honor before, so she told me that each year the students vote for the 6 top leaders of the school. Five came from our troop and she wanted me to know. The sixth was a girl. I don't know what 1800 students saw in those boys, but it certainly should be in consideration when we are discussing leadership honors in the unit. Ya know not one of those scouts said anything. When I congratulated them for the honor, they were very humble and just said thank you. Man we had some great kids in our troop. Barry

My experience is that Troop guides and instructors just aren't near enough. Young scouts are at an age where they learn best by watching, not listening. While it is not always possible, the best environment for growth is being immersed with experienced peers. As I said, that situation is not always possible, but it helps to understand the reasoning. Im sorry to hear about your situation. Barry

I know I will get hammered as old fashion preaching out-dated traditional styles of scouting, but this is the main argument against same age patrols. Since there are fewer older scouts to teach the inexperienced scouts, they are left with adults doing the teaching so the scouts to grow and mature. It makes boy run all the more challenging. Barry

A rabbi once explained that the Hebrew intent of the sixth commandment encompasses everything from a mere disparaging thought of the person to the prideful act of taking their life. Jesus said to look at a person with lust in your heart is the same as doing the act. Although Jesus was referring to adultery, I take that as all immoral thoughts. Barry

You guys need to watch the Hawaiians' paddle board. I'm not sure what they consider perfect conditions because I was watching them paddle in the same surf with the surfers. I was pretty impressive. Barry

Oh no not at all. Sometimes my black and white writing style comes off a bit emotional. LOL Actually the members of the board were good adults trying to do the right thing. We were in a stage of maturing. I took the situation personally because we didn't give the scout a good out. I could have forced my hand I guess, but it didn't seem appropriate at the time. A lot of scouts benefited from that experience because I learned more about the requirements of all the ranks as well as providing expectations and guiding scouts more consistently. That was only one of many many of our learning experiences toward growing into a functioning boy run program. LOL I was young and wiling to change, but I think the humility would kill me now. Barry

That was 20 years ago and our troop was only 3 years old still learning how to do this scouting stuff. As I said, the experience taught me how to be a better SM. Griffsmom, I am an engineer and a very black and white. Just ask my family and coworkers who are psychologist. Actually I think that makes for a better SM because most people are some shade of grey and that tends to intrude on the scouts decisions and challenge a boy run program. Where your SM might be going wrong is Pride. That gets in the way sometimes. Barry

We had a scout much like yours that even though he didn't have an official title of responsibility, he worked very hard in the background working with the troop in general. I would say he acted more like an ASM, which is they type of responsibility I encourage on all our older more experienced scouts perform, no matter their rank. This scout was working on his second palm. I gave him a good review and sent him on to the BOR thinking it was a no-brainer. However, the BOR happen to have some Eagles in it who felt that leadership should be more up front and obvious. Being the SM, I observed the scouts more and with a different objective in mind that most of the other adults. I don't think the other adults are doing it wrong because I do guide them in their responsibilties. But I just think Scoutmasters are around the program more often and have more intent on the vision of the program. That is my experience anyway. The BOR took a break and came to talk to me. I explained what I had observed and they didn't feel like it was enough to earn the award. He is an Eagle after all. We debated over it for probably and hour, but it was clear they were not going to sign off this scout. So I learned a lesson to communicate with the BOR better so as not to have surprises in the future. I had hoped the scout would take on a couple more responsibilities to earn the two more palms that was in his plan. But the experience soured him and he aged out without earning any more palms. I became a better SM as a result of the experience. I am a little surprised with your SM's response, but we are all different in how we guide the scouts toward the vision, whatever that may be. That is why I say it is best for the SM to relay his expectations so that everyone is on the same page. Barry

My other post kind of explains my opinion to your question. But sometimes the outcome of two different opinions isn't good. And the Bible refers to that situation for Christians. Goes something like this: 1. Believe in God 2. Never Sin 3. Respect other beliefs 4. You might be persecuted for your belief. Barry

Yes, this is where we differ. I believe that someone born and left in the wilderness without any human contact for 20 years would have a different understanding of empathy, compassion, caring and love for one another if they even have those understandings. And, I believe that if 10 people were left in 10 different wildernesses all over the world for 20 years without human contact, they would have 10 different understandings of those traits, if they even have any understanding. However, if all of them were left with one source of explanations, then they would not only have an understanding of all those traits, they would have a single general understanding. That is the point of using god as the source for the oath and law. Barry

Ahh, it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

They should be pre-approved by the SM because the BOR will review the scout's performance as well and there could be some conflict if everyone is not on the same page. Ask me how I know. Barry

Hmm, without god, how does one know the right direction? Barry

Good post, and good question. The answer is complicated, but one small part of that answer for me is that most religions teach how their followers are to behave toward those with different beliefs. Exactly the same as the Scout Oath and Law guides scouts. Scouts may not respect what a person believes, but their actions show respect for the person. When you see disrespectful actions toward someone, likely someone is doing it wrong as directed by their God. Sadly we live in a time when many people of faith don't know their god because they don't take time to learn. Some of the most vicious and cruel comments at Christians on this forum during recent debates came from those who claim to be Christian. I know this has little to do with the discussion, but I personally wonder how anyone can be a model of the Scout Law when they can't model the very same actions directed by God. Barry

I disagree. Barry

That all being said CP, without a moral code, man fails because they become short sited and follow their emotions and instinct instead of the long term will of the moral code. Once the SM becomes the source of behavior within the oath and law, it is over because then the interpreters of right actions under the oath and law come down to just who is more intimating. To prevent chaos, new rules and laws will be required on the members for their safety. Gone is the freedom of doing right for the sake of doing right. Tracing the intent of our behavior to a higher power protects our intent and keeps us as moral and ethical decision makers. Lose the higher power and we loose our individual freedom to make ethical choices. The BSA becomes baby sitting camping club. Barry

People judge the moral actions of others by their own moral measuring stick. I have a feeling your comment is less about morality of others and more about your personal biases. This discussion went way off track. The point I was making is that in the BSA, it doesn't matter where one gets their morals so long as they can eventually track it back to a higher power. Once atheist (man) becomes the root source of the BSA values of behavior, it can no longer be a values program because man doesn't have a behavior source of reference. Not one that doesn't change from minute to minute anyway. It will just depend on the adult at the time and what mood they are in to how they feel a scout is behaving. Without the values part of the program, the BSA becomes just a after school and weekend camping program like the Canadian Scouts. It literally looses it's soul. Barry

This is exactly how a scout acts using the Scout Oath and Law. This is also why the suggestion that it is unscout-like to turn away people with certain behaviors and beliefs doesn't hold water. Scout-like actions are respecting others without having to respect their beliefs or actions. Barry

This is where I was eventually going. As long as scouting is held accountable to a higher power, then man cannot be the final definition of scout like behavior. Humans sadly are fickle in justifying their behavior and when we submit to man being the final definition of scout like behavior, then scouting looses integrity because there is no higher belief that all can agree on. Scouting becomes just a weekend camping club. Barry

As represented by the atheist reply, humans without some kind of theist direction don't play well together. Barry

How would he know? What is he measuring morality against? When an atheist says he is moral, what standards is he comparing himself against? Barry