Eagledad

Our troop strives to be the lightest most efficient back county adventures we can be. The scouts will shave the handles of knives to save weight. But we all learned over the years that some comforts are worth the extra weight. No way I would take a dutch oven in the Norther Tier for a week, but I certainly understand why stosh would. Me personally, I HAVE TO HAVE a camp chair. It's like one of those stadium seats that separates your bottom from the cruel cold wet ground. So I understand why some folks value a good tasting meal on a back packing trek. In fact, I envy their willingness of sacrifice for pursuit of the passion. I really like good food, I'm just not a good cook and kind of lazy and would rather sit back in my camp chair after a long days trek. Barry

What is mine is yours. You may find me hesitant with my convertible. Barry

Yes, and sometimes the picture the parents see on the puzzle is themselves. Barry

Well said. When I was teaching Scoutmaster Fundamentals, I told the participants that they are servants of the parents. Imagine that the scout is a puzzle that the parents are building to make the person they possible can. His teacher is one puzzle piece, the piano teacher is another and the Sunday school teacher is another and yes, the coach. Parents hand pick these people they believe the guidance, experience and social interaction is building the perfect man. So when we leaders get anode with a scouts busy schedule that is getting in the way of our scouting world, remember it is honor to be chosen by the parents to be their part of their team. We are just one puzzle piece. Nothing more. I was also a soccer coach the entire time I was a scout leader. Barry

Oh I know what you mean, many of the over use small camp sites in the Northern Tier area are best described as plop camps. Barry

Been there and done that, but the icing on the cake was these scouts dragging their parents into the meeting so they could enjoy it as well. Barry

The data on the whole is that the two highest losses of scouts in the Cub program are the Tigers and Webelos IIs. The Webelos losses are a result of burnout and the Tigers are a result of requiring to much participation from the adults too fast. I have an anecdotal example as well. We had a pack in the district that decided to quit the Tiger program and start recruiting at the Wolf age or 2nd grade. Five years later the pack had roughly same number of scouts that it had 5 years previous. Barry

We are a back packing troop and may I suggest that when it comes time to aquire patrol gear, consider more on side of back packing style gear. Keep in mind that gear dropped from a plane at 35,000 ft will likely suffer less damage than a years worth of use by scouts. Barry

There are scholarships for scouts. They are harder to find because they don't typically go looking for scouts. The scout must search for them, but they are out there. I know the Methodist Foundation used to give scholarships, I'm not sure they do anymore. Barry

Yep, our troop average about 60% attendance during sport seasons, and 98% during off season. Boys want adventure as well as sports and don't want a hassle. There are a lot of troops that make sports a hassle. That being said, our PLC works hard, so scouts have to consider that when they are thinking about leadership. Barry

I would call the council and ask for the District Executive (DE) of your distirct. He/she will know all the names and contacts you are requesting and the answers to most of your questions. Typically the District Commissioner (DC) is your next best resource. The DE will know the name and number for the DC and other appropriate district resources to your questions. Hopefully you have a Unit Commissioner (UC), but don't count on it. If you don't, ask the DC if they could find you one. Barry

Our Dutch Ovens are used mostly for long slow cooking like crock pot meals. Throw in the ingredients in the early afternoon and a few hours later a delicious one pot meal is ready to be served. Honestly these kinds of meals are no brainers and require very little skill. We are a back packing troop, but I've never seen a dutch oven taken on a backpacking trek. Our guys took a lot of pride in packing light, so it wasn't even considered. I have read of some creative ideas for home made light weight back packing dutch ovens, we just never thought about it. Baarry

We don't seem to have these camp restrictions around here. Or if we do, it is something new. But remember the important objective of putting scouts in outdoor situations is letting them deal with the realities and making decisions so that they grow from the experiences. My angst with some programs is the scouts aren't allowed to be creative and make decisions with the situations presented to them. And sometimes the pump of creativity needs to be primed by the SM, but even then the objective is for the scouts to learn and grow from their decisions. I remember on the trail at Philmont, the next days hike took our crew through two activity areas that the scouts wanted to participate. One was fly-fishing, I don't remember the other. Anyway we would have to hike aggressively to participate in both activities and it appeared there wasn't enough time in the day. The other adult and I sat back rubbing our tired feet as the scouts came up with ideas to get both activities in the day. Turns out we had to get up at 4:00am, but all the scouts bought into the plan and dragged their adults on the trial by 4:00am. If time is a limitation, ask the scouts for help with ideas to make the best of the day. Even if they don't come up with a solution, keep them in the discussion so they know they were part of the team. Get them in the habit of fixing problems. Our scouts learned to always bring an idea for every problem presented. After a while, very few problems are presented. Barry

Not always. We had a family with a son in two different troops. Mom was very active on the committees of both troops, so she was always comparing. Once she told me that is was amazing to watch how our PLC started the meetings on time every time with zero adult help. In fact, the SPL sometimes complains that we adults are always late. She said the meetings in her other son's troop (largest troop in the district) always starts 20 to 30 minutes late because it takes that long for adults to get the scouts herded together and settled down. Really as boy run troops mature, they become less chaotic because the youth leaders have learned how to work as a team and become pretty efficient. You hear less yelling than in adult run troops because they help each other instead of letting one scout deal with situations. But it takes a few years to grow to that place. Barry

Our troop does this very thing at a troop meeting. You don't need to wait for a camp out. We also do a Thanksgiving feast on the November camp out. The troop cooks a couple turkeys and the patrols bring the sides aan desserts. You can see in everyone's faces that there is something special about a whole troop sitting together eating a meal near a fire. We go strait into songs and skits. Then after that, the scouts play night capture the flag. I have not been on the last few November camp outs, but that was a tradition the scouts developed over years. I hope they still do it. Barry

The problem with this theory is when the scouts don't or can't see doing anything different and not growing. Not just in eating, but patrols can develop habits that retard their growth. Remember, boys don't have the life experience of adults, so many times they just don't know that they can broaden their experience. Hey, adults who have never camped have the same problem, they just don't know what they don't know. There comes a time when you have to balance growth over the time it takes to reach that growth and maturity. That is why we quit using same age patrols. Working side by side, younger scouts matured a lot faster (a lot faster) with experienced patrol mates than the scouts who had the same limited experience they had. That makes sense doesn't it? I'm not telling to use mixed age patrols, I don't think anyone here wants to start a long boring commerical chest beating thread on whose style is better. I'm just illustrating that there are limits to scouts growing from their experiences. That is why scoutmasters are part of the program. They are sometimes the spark required for a dying fire. Remember Blws, 300 ft. means a loooonnnggg waaaays from the adults and other patrols. So helping scouts mature naturally sometimes requires some creativity. Barry

Interesting comment. Only two requirements and that is considered adult stuff. Scouts can prepare anything they want, it just has to be something more than eating out of a cold can. Now I must say the two requirements came about over time when we had some issues with food quality and healthy eating. And, the PLC created the requirements at the request of the SM asking for some help in that area. I really don't think that adults going wild. As for Role modeling preparing food and everything that goes with that, (LOL) the adult campsite is 300 ft. away from the patrols and usually there are trees and such between the camp sites. Once in a while we might display a cooking technique in the middle of the camp so the scouts can see like cooking turkey in a pit of reflective oven. But that's not really the same thing. Also remember out patrols are mixed age patrols. Usually the younger scouts learn pretty quickly from their own patrol members. Now if you are asking how to help the scouts develop some new habits or skills, there are a lot of ways to get creative like having a cooking theme month where each troop meeting teaches and practices a specific part of cooking. Lot of ideas on the forum on how to do that. Cooking competitions are very popular and a lot of fun. REMEMBER, Usually the SM is the judge. Be creative in how you bring patrols up to speed on any skill. Adult leaders don't need to be part of the mix, but they can, especially the ones who are good cooks. Invite moms, chefs or cooks from other troops. So many tricks to cooking great food outdoors. I'm with stosh, Dutch oven cooking is some of my faviorite and it is very easy because basically you can dump food in it and leave it alone for a specific amount of time. Our scouts do Dutch oven roast all the time. Super easy and very hard to mess up. We are a back packing troop, but the patrols can check out a dutch oven anytime the need. Dutch oven chicken is soooo good. HEY, there you go for one night of the cooking theme. Barry

There were only two requirements I ask from the scouts' on preparing meals: the meals needed to be nutritional, and should be prepared (Prepared meaning that it doesn’t come straight out of a package like pop tarts or cereal). I preferred all meals be cooked depending on the camp out, but gave them the option for lunch. I want scouts to learn and grow from all their experiences, especially preparing and cooking good tasting food. My wife was amazed at the meals I could prepare when we first got married and just about all them were from my boy scouting experiences. I also agree that Sunday shouldn’t be a hurry up break camp day because it wrecks the cooking experience. I remember our Webelos being pulled from their tents on one Troop visit at 7:00 morning. The SM handed them a poptart and told them to eat and break camp at the same time. He wanted to get all the gear stowed back at the church storage before the first Sunday service. I asked him, why can't you wait until after church services are over. He said he never thought of that. Our Troop rarely starts breaking camp before lunch. Barry

These discussions seem to go off on a trail of their own. Suggesting a peanut butter sandwiches all weekend to steaks and Dutch oven French toast kind leaves one scratching their head. What? When we are dealing with groups that are totally inexperienced with outdoor living, getting up to speed takes small steps. I have no trouble with the SM giving the scouts a simple menu for their first campout. It is a starting place that will guide them of foods they can take camping as well as the experience of aquiring the food within a given budget. The problem I see is giving the scouts a menu their 2nd and 3rd campout and not allowing them to be creative and make decisions. That is why the scouts are bored. It has been said many times here that adults need to learn and grow faster from the scouting experiences than the scouts or they will become a barrier to scout growth. Add that most of the restrictions that adults throw at the scouts are motivated by adults fears. The number one adult problem in most troops is letting fear not allow them to learn and grow faster than the scouts. And I get it, being a boy run leader isn't as easy as we seem to paint it here on the forum. Eating simple healthy meals on camp outs can be a challenging task for new adults. The solution is training themselves out of the fear. I've seen adults dictate in one way or another the menu selection of the scouts because they are afraid the scouts will basically starve. So the adults need to teach the scouts what kinds of foods are healthy and the different meals that can be made from those healthy foods. There are very simple menus that boys enjoy and are healthy. It may not be steak and potatoes, but it can be better than peanut butter sandwiches all weekend long. Or not. But the point is for the adults to grow past their fears by learning and teaching so that the scouts are making the choices, not the adults. If scouts are to grow, the adults need to grow as well. At the point the adults quit growing, the troop program stops as well. That is really what the SM giving the scouts menus on their 2nd and 3rd campout is representing. The scouts should be capable of making some choices for their meals by the 2nd camp out. That is a simple lesson for boy run adult leaders in training. Barry

With young scouts, multiply the noise level and time awake by the number of scouts in the tent. Barry

It will be exciting to watch. Let us know how it goes. Barry

Well I disagree with your first sentence. You will just have to take my word on it. I have worked with a lot of troops changing to boy run and the older scouts were the stumbling block. Taking care of the members of your patrols is a cultural ideal. It is a hard concept for older scouts who are used to being in the background of adults being the servants. Older scouts will teach and to some degree lead, but taking on the boy run code of a servant lifestyle is so different from their experience that it isn't scouting to them. It actually looks like a lot of work to them. It's not just programs going to boy run, scouts 14 are adults; adults are creatures of familiarity and resist change. It's how nature works. We are a result of preteen lifestyle and it is very hard to change. It's kind of funny to see, the older scouts sit back and watch the program as if it were a movie. This is the same thing Venturing Crew leaders complain about as well. Scouts from troops where the scouts were more in the background of adults wait for the Venturing program to come them. That is why girls tend to be the ones who jump in and push the program forward. They haven't been trained to follow. However, I'm willing to be humbled and see it work. Barry

Warning Alert! I have found that just about in every case of a SM taking over and changing the program that the older scouts (14 and older) are resistant to change. It doesn't matter what the change is, they just don't like change. Of course one should never say never, but even with this knowledge, new SMs struggle to get the older scouts engaged. "Be prepared" to make the culture change with the younger scouts and letting the older scouts hang back with enough older program so that they hang around. They might not buy into the new program, but they can help you in some areas. Likely your culture change will have to come with the younger scouts. Barry

When you look through history NJ where the poor were treated unfairly, you will find an abuse in power and interpretation of the moral code. You have heard me say many times that when their is no single source of moral code, moral code because what the guy with the biggest stick says it is. Stosh is exactly right, moral code is supposed to be used by the community to protect the weak and innocent. That is the motivation behind not having gay role models. Now it is true the pendulum can swing too far in both directions, but how do you know without a non-changing moral source. Rationally I can explain why religion fails when it does because I have a guideline or doctrine. But those without such a guideline tend to rely on emotions until experience changes their opinion. And even then it is still and emotional choice. A deity, as you say is neither emotional or changing and is required to anchor morality. Barry Barry

Our SPLs will tell you they never worked so hard in their life. For me, SPL is basically SM in training. That means motivating the scouts to run the troop. Along with that is making sure all the paper work is done and all the details are considered. Our SPL goes to all the troop leader meetings at summer camp and is responsible for representing the troop in an official capacity. They work so hard that the troop pays for their camp fees. But the Scouts consider it such and honor that they strategize months, sometimes years a head to run and get elected for SPL during the summer. After six months in the position, they are ready for a break. But several of them run again six months later saying the first six months was just training. I invite all of them to camp with the adults since they are handling adult level responsibilities and you can see in their face that they consider the offer a great complement, but none of them took me up on the offer. Personally I'm glad, scouts need to hang with the buddies as long as they can. I tried to build the program so that every scout was being challenge at their maturity. By the time they get to SPL, they are pretty mature, so it takes a lot to keep them challenged. Oh, I agree with Quazse, wonderful post MattR. Barry