Eagledad

Just like two different math teachers teaching out of the same book, there will be some differences in presentation. When I was the Council JLT Chairman, we had our own council JLT program (JLTC) that was boy run based. It was very successful as far as satisfaction from the troops, but extremely difficult to present consistently because different course directors had differing opinions to how much independence participants should be given during the course. Even though I was the creator of the course, I dropped it for the new (new then) NYLT because it was much easier to for the average person to present consistently from year to year. My successors tell me NYLT is pretty easy to present when following the book. But I would be surprised if there wasn't any variance between councils just because nobody is a like. Barry

Um, I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. NYLT is ONE standardize program. Barry

The BSA looses more scouts during their first year (six months really) in the troop than any other age group. The reason, in so many words, was they didn't trust the boy run program. The shock of going from adult guidance for 11 years to boy guidance in just a few weeks is more than many boys can tolerate. THAT is the single biggest reason the New Boy Patrol was created. The problem stosh is there is a key step, or steps, missing between a new scouting walking in the door their first day and the advise of giving scouts the full responsibility for their program and activities. It doesn't do any good for adults looking for answers to leave that step out. Remember, you keep bragging that you have 40 something years as a scout leader. Many folks checking out this forum barely have four months. Hedgehog's and others here have some advice to helping the first day scout to a confident independent scout setting out on his dreams. Sadly the membership loss numbers for the first year scouts hasn't changed with the NSP, or at least as of ten years ago. So that means the NSP didn't approach fixing the problem. That makes sense to me because the problem for first year scouts is that they are very uncomfortable going from the orderly adult led lifestyle to the chaotic boy run lifestyle. Shocked is an appropriate word. Just because all your patrol mates are your same age friends doesn't make it less chaotic. New scouts need to be given some time to get weaned from their total trust of the adults to the trust of their youth leaders. And it's OK for the adults to be part of the success of a boy run program. Barry

Very impressive Hedge. Barry

It's not an across the board assumption, it's experience. And, if the scouts is asked what they want to do, it generally is either "I don't know" or something that isn't challenging. Then the adults are stuck trying to pry ideas out of them without coming off as their own idea. And that eventually works, but I will challenge most any troop leader that thinks they have that skill mastered in that their scouts will invariably think of ideas from the adult perspective. It's how nature works. And really, is that such a bad thing? Really, I think we push the theory of boy run out of the reach of normal adults. This whole discussion keeps hitting at the real chicken and the egg problem. To we practice skills to learn them, or do we learn them to practice? If we are looking for a magic ring of getting adults up to speed with scout skills there isn't any really. Amateur adults in a new troop will naturally struggle to grow and must reach out past their comfort zone for help. How they do that depends on the adults and the unit. But finding skilled adults outside the unit is an obvious approach that I rarely see taken. Is it pride? I don't know, that was how our troop expanded it's program. And I might even suggest a troop camping with an experienced troop to learn from observing. One other observation I have seen many times is that young scouts need a boost to grow beyond their comfort zone. Rarely have I seen an 11 year excited to camp in a strange dark woods without someone around they trust. It is the nature of survival. I remember our the first morning of our first campout with our 2nd year Webelos. We noticed a spot next to the tent that smelled of urine. We didn't make a big deal of it, but we learned that for young scouts, the path to the latrine in the middle of the night is a lot scarier than in the day. A lantern near the latrine makes a big difference. We also advise the PLs of new scouts to help them in anyway possible on their first camp out. Hedgehog is right, scouts need some confidence. Whether that comes from training, patrol leader, older scout, or adults within an ear shot away, they want something more than being told that it is all up to them. Barry

No we disagree. I think the parents need to be savy enough to find the right troop. Our best experiences are with the scouts whose parents are very involved. But even then a troop may find themselves challenged. We had one scout so mentally challenged that nobody really knew if he knew he was in the woods. Dad wasn't at the campout where his son walked off in the woods on a 35 degree rainy night while only in his underwear and socks. His parents were fully understanding when we suggested finding something different. I think what I find surprising by some of the comments is the lack of understanding and compassion for individual personalities of these boys and their families. Is it really compassionate to intimidate a troop to take on a scout under the guise of "It's discrimination and exclusion if you don't". Each boy with a handicap and learning disability is different and require additional skills and effort. Trying figure out if they fit in the program can be extremely challenging. After two years in the troop, the parents of one scout voluntarily pulled their autistic son from our troop because he couldn't camp. He had a terrible fear of water. Just a cup of water in front of him sent him in a terrified rage. We had no real problems with the scout because he only came to meetings. But I guess it must have been pretty frustrating for him and his parents when the troop spent much of the meeting preparing for normal out door activities. One of our scouts was fully deaf. He was easy because he could read lips. We had a mentally retarded scout who was near Eagle, but struggled with his temper when he reached puberty and became somewhat dangerous. I will never forget the look on his dad's face when he realized his son would not earn the Eagle. He is a Silver Beaver, so he understood scouting. He pulled his son, not us. Many of these scouts will live with their parents the rest of their lives. I think folks who believe any handicapped or learning disabled boy can be in boy scouts is nieve of the risk of camping in the woods. Many normal scouts have been lost in their own camps and died, not to mention hurt when not paying attention to rules and guidelines. And then there is the added task of taking care of these scouts. I don't know what it is, but something about learning disabled scouts needing a lot of sleep is very hard on patrol mates. Our Troop was once chastised by the summer camp staff because we arrived very late one morning to opening as a result of one handicapped scout who couldn't wake up. An adult finally had to baby sit him. They both missed breakfast. Not a huge hardship, but unless it has been experienced, a unit doesn't know what they are getting into. Handicapped and learning disabled scouts will double if not triple the work and responsibilities of adults and patrol mates. That is fine is you understand up front, but very stressful for the unexpected unit that doesn't have the experience of knowledge of working with these scouts. So I believe it is inappropriate to suggest that it is every adults duty to accept handicapped and learning disabled boys. Barry

No unit is a like and they shouldn’t be expected to be all things to all boys. Our troop has a lot of experience with handicapped and learning disabled scouts, so with respect I disagree with 2Eagles and stosh. The statement presumes that every boy no matter their mental or physical ability can handle all the activities of every unit program and that is simply not true. And, I learned they hard way that it isn’t safe either. In short, the limitations of any scout’s physical and mental abilities has to be balance with the units ability to provide safety and growth for the whole of the program. When the limitation of a scout limits or puts scouts at risk, then the program is not the best fit for that scout. And in some cases, the general scouting program as it is presented is not the right program either. A troop program should not have to lower its performance abilities simply for a boy with below average abilities. That is not to say that if the added responsibilities and effort of taking in a handicapped scout can indeed improve the program, then by all means. Welcoming scouts with lesser abilities should be a positive growth experience for everyone. However, there are limitations to each unit’s capabilities and I believe that it is the parent’s obligation to and find the best match for their situation. Not the other way around. We never turned away from the challenge of any new scout, especially with families where the parents where all in with helping. But as a result, I have learned that there is nothing harder than sitting down with parents and explaining that their son shouldn’t be in a typical scouting program. If you really have compassion for these young men, then be more concerned about finding the right fit instead of forcing units to take in boys that hurt the unit program. Barry

Our council has such a course, or had such a course (I haven't been involved lately). It required two four day weekends and the course only filled about 40 participants a year. It takes a lot of time for the staff and it it cost quite a bit as well because of the food and materials being used. Even after all that, participants are still just basically exposed to the skills with a better understanding of how and when to used them. As Eagle94 says, the only practical way of learning outdoor skills is doing outdoor skills repeatedly on monthly camp outs. Barry

Sounds like the program is too complicated for both the scouts and adults. Maybe you are jumping into the boy run thing in too deep and are struggling to keep your head above water. You handed the keys over to the scouts but they don't have the knowledge or experience to run it like the SM handbook. Neither do you really. You need to scale the program back to where the adults can at least feel there is continuity in the program structure. Help the PL plan and learn with along with him how to plan a simple activity. How about helping the PL plan a simple hike at the next troop meeting. Nothing big or complicated. Just the guys trying to get from point A to point B back to A. What does that require in planning? Start time, destination. Pretty simple. Make it fun, add pizza somewhere in there. Close with a SM minute and go home. The scouts aren't the problem, the adults are because they don't really know what they are doing. So when the program seems out of control, pull it back to where you can see the scouts "having fun" and growing from the activities. Older scouts are harder because they are set in their ways. But if you hold the right carrot in front of them (make it fun), they will make a turn. You want the scouts to lead (honestly lead) so the troop learns to respect youth authority, but you have the problem of scouts with no leadership experience. So become part of the team and learn together. Let the scouts know that you (the adults) don't really know what you are doing either, so you are going to learn together. Never take the lead, never stand in for the youth leader to direct their scouts. In our troop, adults never put up the sign first, we always wait for a scout to take control and then support him by responding with out sign. Let the scouts lead and let them struggle enough so that the you and the scout can discuss how to handle it better next time. Be cleaver, when things start to look bad, figure out how to help the scout without stepping in. As the scouts gain confidence in their leadership, the adults keep stepping back. You will find this actually works pretty fast, so get out of the way. One other thing I suggested to newer young troops was getting copies of the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook and work out of those books with the scouts instead of the SM Handbook. In fact, I gave new SMs these books and told them to put the SM Handbook away for awhile. When the troop runs into issues, have the SPL or lead PL pull out his Handbook while you pull out yours and come up with a solution together. Most troops can function successfully with just those two easy to read books. You are doing OK, you just got too much going on. It's more work than fun for the scouts right now. Make it fun, plan a simpler troop meeting that is more action than talk. Even games are better than lectures. Likewise plan fairly simple fun campouts. Surely there is a park nearby where the scouts can camp and ride bikes all day. Pretty easy. As they see how it was to plan and execute, let them take more lead on the next one, the fishing or hiking campout. Keep it simple simple simple for the next few months. Then push for them against their comfort zone. I know it seems hard right now. I try to tell adults that for boy run troops, adults have to work harder and learn faster than the scouts so that they don't get in the scouts way. Once you get in that habit, you will say to yourself "I love this scouting stuff". Barry

All these different ideals of the MB counselors approach and responsibility toward working with the scouts is the reason that the BSA says leave it up to the counselor. I think for the scout to get the most value out of the relationship with his counselor, the counselor has to want to get something out of the experience as well. And that desire is different for each of us. I guess that is why the guidelines are somewhat broad. Thank goodness. Barry

Your word, my response defined the difference. If it weren't for the difference, you would have no need to bring your apposing opinion.

Lots of good information from the others. There is no obvious easy answer. What is obvious, at least to me, is you are going to have to make some kind of dramatic change to last very long in the program. It is a wonderful and rewarding organization, I hope you find the place where your rewards are at least equal to your efforts. Barry

Ah, then you should not have responded to my post. But even Fred's response supports the pretense of motivation in how discrimination is implied. Barry

Yes NJ, you seem to loose patience in discussions that don't quite go the way you like, but it is a friendly courteous dialogue and while your opinion that the words are wasted, I disagree. In the Bible, Patience is the first word for defining love and that is not by coincidence (1 Corinthians 13:4-7). We all find ourselves annoyed now and then, but how we respond is what sets the level of the discussion. As long as the discussion is within the boundaries of the scout law, Isn't that enough? Barry

Equivocation is your word. Motivation for intent is everything, Discrimination to serve or to self-serve has different desired affects. Morality disciplines the desire.

Wow! I am so very sorry. Shocked doesn't quite describe my feelings. Peace and healing for your family and friends. Barry

Just the opposite, morals drives the true motivation of discrimination to serve or self-serve. Barry

Everybody discriminates or the world would be in chaos. It's just a matter to what moral values (or lack there of) guides our discrimination choices. Barry

I don't agree and I'm a very anti MBU person. I think MBUs could be useful in showing Troops the correct way to manage the MB process and bring in a broader range of hard to find subjects for the scouts. My proposal for a MBU was have all the counselors come to a common location (high school) on Friday night and stand with a small display to show their subject. The scouts can wander around looking for subjects interesting to them and discuss with the counselor how they will present the subject. The scouts could then pick the MBs that were interesting to them, fill out the paperwork and approach their SM for a signature. The Scout then goes back with the approved card and signs up for class that can be presented the next three Saturdays in the same location. The counselor is not required to meet with the scouts at any or all of the three Saturdays, but it does make if convenient if they choose. This makes it easy for the district because they aren't required to hold any complicated records of who will be in what class when. Our district has this long complicated computer software that requires scouts to sign up for the MB long several weeks a head of the MBU day. The scouts are required to stay at the MBU all day even if they only take one class. My proposal treats the program more like a university where the scouts pick their MB, set up their own schedule with the counselor and only show up for the times they arrange with their counselor. All district has to do is send the troop the information of the date and time of the friday the counselor will be availilble for information and get a school to open their doors for three Saturdays. No complicated tracking software database required. AND, to make it more convenient, adult leadership training will go on the first Saturday. It seemed like a good idea to me, but my main motivation was for the Troops to see the process they are supposed to follow. I learned a long time ago that district sets the pattern that troops tend to follow. Which is why so many troops in our district have terrible advancement programs. Barry

Well we all have to learn these things. I honestly don't remember how my sons learned to pack. I'm sure I was somewhere in the system, but I never packed for them. However, I will never forget a scout who brought one pair of underwear to summer camp for the whole week. When we asked why he was always wearing his swimsuit, he broke down in tears admitting to his problem. When we got back home, I approached the father about it and he looked strait into my face to say, "we were just trying to follow your advice of letting scouts pack themselves". He was pretty angry with me and I learned a lesson of being a little more explicit when guiding parents to how they can help their son become more independent. Barry

It's not up to the SM, it's up to the counselor. However, if you are asking for some leniency in the requirements because the scout will never be mentally or physically capable of passing a requirement, then contact the District Commissioner and ask for some guidance. They always came through for us. You want these kinds of decisions made by higher official levels so it doesn't come to bite you at the Eagle review. Barry

300 ft. between the adults and patrols solved that for us. We don't actually walk off 300 ft., but we try to get out of sight and sound from the scouts. I didn't realize how far that was until a patrol leader woke me up 3:00 one morning to tell me about a sick scout. I told him I would meet him there after I got dressed. It was a moonless night in the dense woods and I like to never found their campsite. Maybe we should consider 250ft.. (: Barry

Ah the warm memories that this thread brings back to me. That was the good old days of scouting. That being said, I don't miss the canvas tents. They were heavy, smelly and dried really slow. They required good staking to remain upright (many rainy nights of restaking the tent) and a person tended to find themselves outside under the stars because they slipped under the tent went set up on slopes. And there was no way of keeping gear dry as the rain flowed through the tent. We trenched around the tent, but what a mess. Yep, not a lot of fond memories of the old tents compared to todays tents. The Explorer style tents don't do as well in Oklahoma as dome style tents because they are like sails in the wind and tear down easily. Most troops while I was a scout used the Overnighter (number 4 on Tawhawk's catalog) scout tent or the Backer tent (Number 5) because they resisted the wind better. I agree with the sleeves of dome tents. We learned over the years to find backpacking tents that only use hooks instead of sleeves so that they can be set up at night in the rain much faster. In fact, setting up a tent blind folded is something the scouts would practice before a trek. Barry

I didn't include the resqman's whole post, but he pretty much described our troop. However, I disagree with the tone of the discussion that the main struggle for adventure in scouting is with parents, or especially with the helicopter parents. The issue that affects the BSA is lack of adults with the experience to bring adventure into their program. We average 4 to 6 high adventure crews a year and many of our weekend campouts include biking, rappelling, shooting sports, and water sports. We rarely have trouble with parents balking or hesitating to send their sons because we show them our expertise and approaches to safety. The problem with adventure in the boy scouts is finding adults with the expertise and knowledge of safety. As has been pointed out before, less than 75% (my guess is a lot more) of adults joining the program don't have much, if any, scouting or camping experience as a youth. Even a simple car camp out can be a challenge for many young troops. Honestly the BSA isn't that far from the Girls Scouts program today simply because we don't have adults comfortable in the woods. Philmont is popular because they know how to guide these kinds of troops through a memorable safe high adventure experience. Our culture certainly is over protecting our children and it is bleeding into the scouting program. But overall if the troop is willing and makes the effort to learn the skills required for safe outdoor activities, most parents will go a long with it. In fact, I found that they are quite proud of the skills their sons learn from the program. It is interesting to note that most adults are terrified at even the thought of their kids using an axe, and yet they don't have too much concern with simple innocent appearing tree saws that account for about 70% of woods tool injuries. Think about it for a moment, for those of you who didn't have much experience in the woods during your youth, what did you bring to the program? How did you get up to speed enough that you could take a group of our sons on a simple camp out? This is the challenge of the future BSA. Barry