Eagledad

Boy, there are some really well written responses here, and I don't want to take away from them at all. I have bullying story that brings the Scouts into the light. One year I attended our biannual Council Leaders meeting where all district leaders attend to get briefed on scouting updates from National and to get continued education for our specific responsibilities. The Council Executive always starts this meeting meeting with the intention of raising spirits and setting a positive tone with a little humor and a lot of praise. He started this particular meeting reading a letter from a mom who was praising the troop program where her son was a patrol leader. She explained that his a very awkward boy who doesn't relate normally with other people and had basically no social skills. As a result, he had very few friends and very few interest where he would mix with other kids his age. What was worse was the way his teachers and school counselors treated him. She didn't go into details much except to say that adults can be as bullying to kids as the kids. She emphasized it by saying that they were in litigation with the school. The point of the letter was that the one place where her son felt was accepted for who he was was his boy scout troop. She explained that it was the one place we he didn't feel judged, much less bullied. He was given the room and encouragement to do the best he could, and as a result, he at the time of the letter was a Patrol Leader, which is turns out was a dream of his. Maybe even hers. During my district and council responsibilities, I was able to observe hundreds of other units. I matured a lot during those years because learned a lot about how different we adults can really be. I was naive to say the least. But because I seem to have a gift for working with people, I was called to deal with difficult situations. As a result I was confronted with, and had to deal with, the behaviors of alcoholism, infidelity, racism, mental abuse, physical abuse, bullying of both adults and youth by both adults and youth and so on. My heart ached for these people, especially for the scouts. I got calls in the middle of the night by the police to help deal with family situations where the boy knew me. I learned a lot those years about our fellow adults. Maybe that is why I'm less patient with some of the tone on this thread. But I also learned that in the vast majority of the cases, the scouts felt safe in the troop. In most, not all, but most cases scouting was a sanctuary from the part of their life that caused pain. I think the patrol method design also insulates scouts away from even difficult adults in the unit. Of course there are a lot of not so good stories opposite of the letter the SE read to all the district leaders of the council. But I think you will find that in general, scouting is a refuge for boys in many ways. See, while the SE didn't know that the SM of that troop was in attendance of the meeting, I also didn't know the letter was from a mother of a scout in our troop. I knew the scout very well because he was a very awkward boy who stood out from the crowd. I knew his parents well because they were extremely supportive with their resources without ever asking for anything in return. They were a nice family. I did start putting two and two together when the letter gave some details of the program that I obviously found familiar. But I'm not sure anyone in our troop knew of this scouts struggles in his private life because the family never mentioned them. I only knew of the law suit from the letter. As different as he is, the scout never stuck out so much in our program that we would have guessed is personal situation. Not that he wasn't challenging, he thinks differently than most of us. To give you an idea of his intelligence, last I heard was he was is an engineer on a nuclear submarine. To give you and idea of his behavior challenges in in our troop, he nearly stroked out on us at Philmont because he decided water wasn't important for his diet. His crew mates interceded and saved his life. Actually they save him twice because I was tempted to kill him for pulling the stunt. But truly folks, he was that way. There are a lot of wonderful youth organizations that our kids can join and grow positively from the experience. But I can't think of another organization with something like the patrol method. When used correctly, the patrol eventually bonds into a whole where each member contributes to make the whole better. They can't help but grow so close that members are willing to ignore the awkward ways of the others and accept and respect each other for what they contribute to the group. In most cases, no matter how different the members are in personalities and lifes experiences, they bond and grow. I have heard more than once that Boy Scouts is for nerds. Well I think it is much much more than that of course, but maybe it gets the reputation because so many of awkward boys join scouts to find themselves and be accepted for what they are. This wasn't our only scout with a challenging character, so I'm convinced the patrol method is special and very powerful when used by its design. I drifted off the subject just a bit, but I felt I needed to add this somewhat long post to such a quick and short point. Thanks for your patience. Barry

Here we go again, no prisoners. ALL adults have a vision, especially stosh who beats his vision over our heads over and over. What is at issue is how the scouts reach the adult vision. I don't agree with stosh's style of peddling his vision, but he has admitted in the past that he and I seem to have the same direction for scouts. And let me throw in some cold water of reality, Boy Scouts is not the boys program, it belongs to adults who use the program to reach a vision for their son the scouts. The BSA in short says the mission is to develop boys into moral and ethical men whose decisions are guided by the Scout Oath and Law. Sounds like a pretty noble goal to me. Now from it's beginning, scouting's founders have said that giving scouts the freedom and independence to make decisions using the Scout Oath and Law is the best way for him learn from his decisions and work toward the vision of a moral ethical decision maker. You won't find any of the founders suggesting adults have no place in the program. So lets not get stuck in the mud of adult personality styles that should and shouldn't be used to help the scout toward a vision. Every adult is different and most have basically the same goals for their scouts. Adults have a responsibility to promote scout growth. You, not Barry or stosh, have to decide if a tradition the scouts are using is in fact hurting or helping toward scout growth and how you can influence change it if need be. Stosh has posted a lot of advice to help adults improve their mentoring, coaching, and leadership skill, so I'm lost where that rant came from. Truth is everyone else here will agree that developing the art of mentoring, coaching, and leading is the best way to improve the boy's experience in the program. In fact, that is what this forum is really about. The adults have the big picture, or should have the big picture of where the scouts should be heading. Scouts have their side of the program that is intended to progress their own personal objectives and goals as well. The troop needs to be a safe place where boys can be fostered forward with all their decisions, right or wrong. Adults have vast amounts of knowledge and experiences that the scouts haven't even begun to acquire. So does it make sense that the adults aren't supposed to nudge the program here and add a little something there to not only improve scout growth, but also help make the experience more fun and meaningful? Truth of the matter is that there is a lot of give and take to maintaining a balance for keeping a boy run program going forward without the adults being intrusive. Is it reasonable to expect the SM to work with the 12 year old SPL the same as the 16 year old SPL? In reality, working with scouts without being intrusive is an art that takes a lot of practice. Theory is a good place to start, but the good leaders not only are willing to change, the expect to change because 12 year olds should be guided differently than 16 year olds. So lets move on from this narcissistic take no prisoners my way or the highway nonsense and actually discuss what the adults can do to enhance the program so that it can be the very best boy run patrol method program it can. Barry

Many troops, really? It's a concept I never heard of much except on forums. Oh a troop might be forced to restructure as a result of some unusual circumstances like doubling troop size overnight, but not on a regular basis that you suggest. Is this a problem in your area? Barry

That's not an adult expectation? What you really mean is that you aren't interested in our adult expectations, only your adult expectations. Barry

Hi all I stopped to get gas and as I was leaving the gas pump, I had to move awkwardly into the corner of the lot to get out of the way of a police car I was blocking. No big deal, but as I was driving home just a couple blocks away, the officer stopped me. He was from a nearby town and I wasn't speeding, so I didn't have a clue why I was stopped. He came over to my car said, "do you remember me? I'm Eric!". That was fun, our troop has such great scouts. You never know when you will run into one of your past scouts and moments like these remind me that we must have had some influence in their life for them to go out of their way just to say hello. My biggest challenge at my age is trying to put the face of the man on the memory of the boy. Eric must have put on 75 lbs. LOL Ah, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes, I knew that. You have been on this forum a long time and your character is firmly planted in the patrol method. As you know, this scouting stuff isn't easy, everyone especially the adults have to grow for the program to mature. It's a slow process and that is a test of our patience making the rewards seem all that farther away. But the evidence of the patrol method will become more obvious and you will gain respect as a result. As that happens, there will be less resistance to your ideals and the growth will pick up pace. I tell this so that maybe you can take a moment to enjoy it now during the birthing pains instead of waiting 15 years to be stopped by a strange adult just wanting to say "remember me?". Barry

We have tried many ways of mixing new scouts into the troop, but this method is by far our most successful. We had the least complaints from all the new scouts and their parents and they assimilated the quickest into the patrol method program. We also have the least discipline problems because the new scouts and their new patrol mates became friends quickly. New scouts are typically the most difficult behavior problems because they are new to independence and it takes a little while to learn the boundaries of good behavior. Barry

NONE (emphasis) of the data from the 1989 survey mentioned program. I was one of those who did as much research as possible at the time, which was pre-internet and was basically the booklet and supporting literature. Yes, that was a long time ago and I can't remember all my sources, a lot of what I was saying came from pros who were involved with the data. Agree Summer camp is THE biggest way to retain Scouts. We are not the best troop out there, we do have some challenges in youth led and some boring meetings. BUT those who have gone to summer camp stay around. I need to be careful how I say these things because this is an example of starting bad policies by saying it the wrong way (I can see it now, a rash of WB ticket items to make all the new scouts go to summer camp). Summer camp won't sell a boy to a bad program, but it is a great place for the boy in a good troop to see how the program works and why it is something worth continuing. Your troop has something going for it to keep all those new scouts. As for Venture crews, now called Venture patrols, for us it was just a new name for the Leadership Corps. I did mean Venture Patrols. Do they not have those anymore? The Venture patrols were created so that older scouts 14 and older could form their own patrol. I think it is more harmful to the Troop program than the NSP because it takes the older scouts away from the younger scout right at their prime, and it prevents the older scouts from managing the whole troop program. As I've said before, a troops younger scout program depends on the quality of the older scouts part of the program. If you don't have older scouts, the troop is stuck in a young scout program, which is typically a First Class Skills program. By the way, there was a rumor a few years ago that National was using the NSP and Venture Patrol to eventually split the program into two programs, 10 thru 13, and 14 thru 17. I don't know if it was true, but there was some angst about it on the forums. The Venturing Crew program is another problem. The challenge I'm currently finding in my troop regarding NSPs is that A) the adults are to quick to jump in and help the NSP, and they never really get the chance to solve their own problems. and B) the youth keep coming to the adults with problems. Part of that is that we have not really had good TGs IMHO. Yes, that is the way they have been doing it since the scout was born. The problem isn't that they can't change, it's finding someone who understands the problem and guides them toward change. It's a slow process that never stops because just as soon as you get most up to speed, a new group of Webelos with gung ho parents join. It makes good SMs into great ones. Barry

Well these seems like huge steps forward. I'm laughing at the Iphone teaching tool. LOL You made some fairly critical observations of the SPL, and in your words you appear to be expecting experienced performance from a first timer. The task appeared to me to be somewhat challenging and complicated. There is a lot of fruit growing from that tree. You seemed more concerned about the perception of the overall performance without acknowledging the individual growth. Next time this happens, ask the scout how he thinks he performed.The answer to that question has humbled me many times. I think you are doing OK. Maybe a few little stumbles, but as long as the each step is going forward, you will get there. Barry

I've studied this subject for years and watched our council member ship numbers, national numbers and just plain talked to a lot of people to understand the whole of the subject. First, it must be noted that the BSA loses more scouts during the first year troop scouts than any other age from Tigers to Venturing. At least it was that way until 5 years ago when I got out of that business. Next, National came out with a study around 1989 that showed that if scouts got to first class in their first year, they were likely to stay with the troop, aaaand, if the scout stayed with the troop a year, they were likely to stay several years. My own study is that getting to first class has little effect of boys staying in the program, rather they stay with an active program that also typically encourages scouts to advance. But as some here already said, many scouts who don't advance quickly stay on as well. So it stands that the program is what attracts boys, not advancement by itself. Aaaaaand my data and experience show that if a scouts is still active after summer camp, you will likely keep him several years. The reason National can't get their one year number to months is because they can only track yearly membership after rechartering, I tracked real time. One of my beefs with National's 1989 data is that it was the motivation for creating New Scout Patrols (NSP), Venture Patrols, and the First Class in the First year program. All fine in theory, but the reality is that those changes shifted much of the control from the boys to the adults. Boy independence for directing their destiny in the program is heart of the classic scout program. Those changes inadvertently change that. AND, after all that, the data 20 year later in 2009 showed that the rate of loss for first year troop scouts is about the same. In fact, I was told once that the first year loss rate has always been the highest loss of scouts and has been and on going problem. National was wrong that same age patrols and advancement were the solution to the new scout dropping problem. If you aren't willing to consider that, than you will struggle to have an open mind for solutions. So, what does it take to keep a new scout long enough that he buys into the program. Well after a lot of years of researching this, I and a few others concluded that the huge jump of going from an adult lead lifestyle all their life to a self independent decision making program where boys around your age are responsible for your health and safety is pretty scary. Very scary in fact. At first independence appeals to these new scouts who have been told by "adults" that they get to make their own decisions in the troop, but it doesn't take long to realize that living with your personal decisions, and more importantly having to live with your buddy decisions, may not be fun or in the scouts best interest. So, the scout starts looking for excuses to skip a meeting or two, then a campout and eventually several campouts. Summer camp is kind of the final straw. But interestingly enough scouts who attend summer camp are forced to endure the scouting lifestyle long enough that it starts to grow on them and they except it for the better things like, well like adventure. So, what can a troop do to get the scout from adult led life to wondering by himself in the darkness. The best programs I've seen use a New Scout ASM who works close with the Patrol Leaders or Troop Guides to show the scouts how the boy run system not only works, but is kind of cool. Also the ASM and the PL/TG work as a team to show the new scout that PL/TG are in control and the ASM is the assistant to the PL/TG. The ASM is also a safety valve for the new scout so that when he gets uncomfortable with the program and still doesn't trust the youth led style, they can seek out a friendly trusted adult. But, the ASM will always defer and work with the patrol leader with the intent of helping the new scout see and learn to trust that the PL truly is the person responsible for his safety and welfare and that they are very capable. Safety and welfare are typically a new scouts concerns. How many times have new scouts urinated on their tent in the middle of the night because the darkness of the woods terrified them to go any farther? The trick to the ASM/PL relationship is that the ASM needs to gradually step back as the new scout gets more comfortable. We found that the ASM was pretty much finished after two or three months. Now we can go back and forth on New Scout Patrols or friends or mixed age patrols, but they don't really matter if the troop isn't dealing with the problem of getting the new scout comfortable with making independent decisions and that his safety and welfare are good in the hands of the other scouts. That is a very basic take on the subject from what I have learned over the years. Barry

Which is why it is so very important to know where you are going; have a clear vision. As I said earlier, scout skills, camping, uniforms leadership and so on are not the main goals or visions. They are only the methods. That is the trap many adults get caught in and why they trend away from boy run. They simply don't know where they are going. An easy way to keep the priorities strait is give the scouts the responsiblities of working the Eight Methods (Ideals, patrols, outdoors, leadership, personal growth, adult association, advancement, and uniform) and the adults focused on the responsibilities of the Three Aims (fitness, citizenship and character). Boy run is the actions of the scout achieving the vision by developing habits of making moral and ethical decisions. Methods are proactive actions to reach the passive traits of the Aims. You stay in check by keeping the adults out of the scouts responsibilties of the methods. All adult choices or reactions should be based on character, fitness and citizenship (descision making). Easier said than done however. How does the SM stay in focus of the Aims when the scouts "chose" not to take responsibility of wearing the uniform? Or camping, or leadership? And for there to be growth, the scout has to make the concous effort to make the right decision. There is no growth if the authority tells the scout to do it differently. Man that's tough, which is why this scouting stuff and boy run isn't as simple as setting tents 100 yards apart. AND, adults have to develop the skill of working the program at the maturity and skill of the scouts. Does anyone really think a 12 year old SPL will perform equally with the experienced 16 year old SPL? It takes practice, but adults have to adapt as the maturity of the scouts change and they have to work it in the context of the Aims or vision. Not the methods. Sounds like you are getting it. Well done. Barry

Blw2. you are reinterpreting the founders to fit within your vision of a program design. You won't find Powell Green Bar Bill talking about same age patrols because their patrol design required older scouts to develop growth of all the ages within the patrols. And while I understand the bias that is based from your experience, you should at least remember that mixed age patrols worked very successfully for almost 90 years. Now don't get me wrong, I'm open minded with folks trying different approaches to get better performance. Hey, we tried same age patrols and learned a lot from the experience. But your post reminded me of a big difference adults have with today's patrol methods compared to my troop's adults in the 70s. As a team, most patrols in the 70s basically had an equal balance of skills and competed fairly with each other in scouting activities. Even patrols from different troops had that same basic level of skills. Today young scouts aren't expected to associate fairly with the other patrols because they lack the skills and experience of the more experienced patrols. That by it's nature forces the young scouts into a different level of activities than the rest of the troop. I find that difference of adult thought strange and nonsensical, especially for a boy run program. But then, I came from the 70s. When we started my son's new troop, I had an expectation for the scouts and the patrols based from my experience as a scout. I have noticed that Eagle94's expectations are based from his experiences. I'm curious, since you don't have much scouting experience as a youth, where do the expectations for your scouts came from? I'm not trying to be condescending or put you down, we all have a lot to contribute to the forum. But I can't imagine how you take the next step without the foundation of experience to draw a vision. Barry

How many scouts total do you have now and at what age? Our troop started with 17 scouts and averaged 25 new scouts a year for the next 10 years. I can't even begin to tell you the challenges of a fast growing "boy run" troop. Let's just say we did more things wrong than we did right. And I fully agree that mixed age troops are better performers for boy run programs. But there are a few situations where NSPs fit better for new scouts. At least for the first few months. As much as new scouts think they like the independence of a troop program when they join, they quickly find the chaos of boys making decisions in their new lifestyle a bit unnerving. New scouts require some special attention for their first few months to help them appreciate and enjoy the benefits of independence. BSA data shows that if a scout stays active in a troop for one year, they will likely stay with that troop several years. My observation of hundreds of new scouts shows that if the new scout stays active after summer camp, he will likely stay for several years. Barry

I don't know why but after reading thread, the theorem of "a troop naturally scales to the size the Scoutmaster can manage" keeps popping in my head. That being said, I really like MattR's reply because it works for every SM no matter the size of the troop or the patrol method style. Good thread, good stuff. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Our troop gradually changed away from using lanterns when we went to a back packing troop. We weren't trying to make point, save fuel or anything, lanterns was just one less thing to carry. And the experience showed us that we don't need light very often except for sometimes for detail task like preparing food or something. Anyway I think the first time we realized how much Difference it made was during camporee where all the other troops had enough light for To light up a football field. Of course we also stuck out because our camp didn't have big ol patrol boxes or elaborate kitchen set ups. Kind of funny, some troops thought we were a poor troop that couldn't afford equipment. Others didn't realize we were one of the bigger troops there because our camp site doesn't stand out so much without a lot of gear. Each patrol still has lanterns, Dutch ovens, axes, shovels, big Colemen stoves and other gear we collected over the years that they use occasionally when the need arrives. But the scouts (not so much the adults) are pretty minimalistic. I remember a guide at Philmont was surprised by how fast we set up and broke down our camp sites. I told him that camping out of a backpack is a normal day for the troop. we just aren't used to bears in Oklahoma. Barry

Try a couple of camp outs without lanterns and see how it goes. Call it survival nights or minimal packing or something. Just a trial, but change your routine to see what happens. We observed that boys tend to lean torward 'less' stuff. Try and just see. To your question, we like propane equipment because it is the most durable with scouts. Barry

Meanwhile back at the ranch. We went through this I think in 1998 and it is important that everyone, SCOUTS and adults, understand the changes because it can be a big mess at BOR. Trust me. The risk, at least back then, was record keeping, which is no big deal until Council has to verify a scouts records for Eagle. I think record keeping is a little better now at the council with computers. After we experienced the problems at BOR, we did some training to get everyone (even interested parents) up to speed. In our troop, training is considered important for patrol method. To simplify it for us, we drew a line, those who started on the old system stayed on the old system. Everyone else started new. It not only made it easier on the adults who do have to verify the records at BOR, but also on the scouts and patrol leaders. Barry

The title of the thread is "Troop Meetings: How to Motivate the Troop". Barry

Ah, the " my way of the highway." approach to ideas. LOL Oh, what was that about the Scout Law? Barry

Your son sounds like mine. Both set some new ideas and standards for working with new scouts, but neither had any ambition beyond working with new scouts. The risk of helping place scouts where they appear to fit is not giving them the chance to find their true calling. What we adults really want is for the scouts to determine their best skills so they can seek out responsibilities that fit their own limitations and interest. Also sadly, the scouting program design gives the appearance that leadership (not responsibility) experience is required to be a good scout. The adults can either encourage that idea (and most do), or they can retranslate it to mean a scout should seek out his own skill sets by challenging themselves with responsabilties of their interest. When I was fairly new at Scoutmastering, I had a scout who didn't seem all the happy with scouting. His dad was one of our most active committee members and kept him in the program. So I suggested he run for PL, which only set him farther away from my trust. Leadership was not his thing, but in an effort to be a good SM, I kept searching for tasks that would give him a taste of some kind of responsibilities. Our troop was ask to participate in the annual Council Scout Fair, so we seree were throwing around ideas and I suggested teaching scouts and scouter how to use the internet to get ideas for their program. BAM, this scout grab that idea, took ownership and had four computers set up to show how to find sites and ideas for scouting. I mean we didn't have to do anything except to show up and listen to him train us. And, our booth was so popular that we were clogging up the main isle of the building. That scout changed, he became one of our most active scouts until he aged out with his Eagle. You just never know what a scout can really do until he finds that nitch. And then you better watch out. Barry

One of my suggestions when this happened in our troop was change the location of the meeting. So come up with a theme that requires a fun meeting somewhere else. The park, the lake, gym, basket ball court, military base, or something. Do something completely different, even just a movie. The SPL is trying to get the cart out of the rut, sometimes that takes doing something completely different. Barry

Wow, sounds like the adult's final word on the matter. You need to stand 100 yards back sir. Anything can be made somewhat pleasurable with the right creativity. "Somethings aren't fun but have to be done" is adult speak and encourages close mindedness. Instead we should show humility by admitting you (the adult) don't have an answer, and open mindedness by asking for help in creating a solution to move forward. Scouts can be pretty creative when given motivation and appreciation. By the way, it hasn't been mentioned yet, but some scouts just don't have leadership skills or ambition and don't mind failing. They aren't bad scouts, they are just in the wrong place to grow. Our troop once cancelled a NASA trip to Houston because of such a scout. Great kid who loved scouting, but that leadership gig just wasn't his thing. Barry

The two laws of motion for boy's are motivation and accountability. Too much of one or not enough of the other can produce undesired leverage in the wrong direction. The balance of motivation and accountability needed to move us forward are different for everyone. But, a general rule is that boys like more adventure than paperwork. So depending on the boy, sometimes we need to be cleaver in turning the paperwork into adventure. Barry