Eagledad

You are going to find that everything you just said including the big brother type and so on are discussed in the Scoutmaster essentials course, Scoutmaster Handbook, and Woodbadge, unless they were changed in recent years since I retired. You got to remember, William Hillcourt (GreenBar Bill) was very involved with the developing this program and a lot of his stuff is still used by the BSA. I'm an engineer, my job requires me to think out of the box and I'm quite good at it. thinking out of the box is probably my favorite thing to do. But I'm also pragmatic and there is a difference between pondering around the question or leading the discussion off by calling everything crap with misinformation to support. Stosh isn't saying anything or doing anything in his troop that many of us on the forum haven't said or done ourselves long before stosh become a scoutmaster. Trust me, stosh has nothing new on many of us on the forum and most of everything he says he does is somewhere in BSA publications. The issue for me blw2 is that Stosh keeps saying that BSA program is intentionally leading adults in the wrong direction. I keep asking where he reads this stuff and he can't answer because it isn't there. But you without the training and the handbook believe him, so you go off repeating his misinformation which doesn't help those other new adults who are looking for a base of information to develop their program. So you can understand why I think his post are counter productive. Where the BSA has gone wrong is that the publications don't get into the details like they used to, especially in patrol method. But neither does stosh, his explination is to suggest that anybody who doesn't do it his way are bad leaders. That isn't productive either. Imagine how much more influential stosh would be if he didn't even mention his opinion of the BSA or the leadership styles of others. Then we get the good stuff without of the smoke and mirrors in the middle. And if you think I'm just picking on stosh, for whatever reason, I held many scouters here accountable to what I think is unscoutlike behavior. I don't know why, I just find it disgusting and I believe it drives people away. Barry

Most of us have discussed this many times over without distorting reality. My struggle with stosh's messages is that he taints, distorts and corrupts acceptable practices, writings and traditional concepts to force a point. I joined this forum to help adults develop a quality program and have a fulfilling scouting experience without making the same mistakes I made. Lately it seems the forum struggles to grow membership and it doesn't help when a new freshly trained leader reads that everything they just learned was a waste of time and wrong. This comes from a Unit Commissioner who is supposed to encourage unit adults get trained so they can help their unit move forward. IF stosh doesn't believe training helps, he needs to get out of the UC business and just stick with scoutmastering his five scouts. For us old-timers, the present BSA information isn't the best guidance for a quality program that we experienced in our units. But it is all that today's adults have and if we can't help guide them to develop a quality program from today's information, they will struggle and fail because there is no fall back plan. One mans option of "My way or the highway" is guidance to failure. I know we help adults build good quality programs more like the traditional patrol method because many of us have been doing if for several years. But it takes sensible reasoning and understanding of the objectives to build a quality program starting with todays information. Growing requires helping one get from "a" to "b"without suggesting that adults who aren't already at "z" are terrible leaders. Kind of funny, after reading stosh's original post, I remembered long discussions in past years where he went to great lengths explaining the proper techniques for mentoring, guiding and coaching of scouts. Seems this scoutmaster stosh didn't like that scoutmaster stosh. Barry

I'm not sure how you are relating this to the current discussion, but our pack does those things with the cubs for their growth. But like everything in scouting, growth has to be in the confines of maturity, otherwise there is no growth. For example we guide the Tiger leaders to stand as a participant with their scouts in skits. We asked the Wolf leader to stand with the scouts, but not be a participant. The Bear leaders doesn't participate at all, but helps their boys pick out the skits and practice. The 1st year Webelos pick their own skits and practices on their own. The 2nd year Webelos write all their own skits. Each year is a progression of growth based on the maturity of their age group. At the pack meetings, two 2nd year Webelos lead the Flag ceremonies with a younger den actually carrying the flags. Two first year Webelos stand one step behind and to the side of the 2nd year Webelos to learn the responsibility for next year. The two Webelos leading the ceremony arrive to the pack meeting an hour early to teach the cubs in the den carrying the flags what to do. The other Webelos set up the room. During the Pack meeting, the Webelos are assisting the Cub Master. After the meeting the Webelos guide the other cubs and parents of putting all the chairs and tables back in storage. The Webelos write and create all the ceremonies and skits for the final pack campfire in May. They are very ready to stand in front of a troop of strangers the next year to lead the flag ceremony or just plan the patrols part in the next campfire. But it isn't about leadership skills, it's about developing confidence to step into the unknown. The Troop experience is the same. A new scout joins the troop and is asked to be a Cheer Master because that responsibility give the scout practice in communication with his patrol mates, and planning for campfires and COHs at the level of experience for a new scout. It's a small responsibility intended to develop the confidence for the next responsibility which will require more communication, planning and association with other folks outside the patrol. This goes on and on until the fully matured scout leaves at age 18. It's one big master plan that starts at the Tiger age. And it works very well. Barry

Mentoring, guiding and coaching are discussed in several BSA training syllabuses and user handbooks. I've haven't seen "perpetual" used anywhere accept in stoshes scary tells. I wonder if there is such a thing as helicopter straw men. Barry

Well I don't believe that is what TAWHAWK said, but I would like you and TAWHAWK to show us where mentoring and guiding are not good techniques to work with scouts? And let's throw coaching in there as well. Barry Barry

Umm, what? So are you saying that mentor, direct and guide are in opposition and conflict with boy-led emphasis and are in the same group as adult control, adult mandates and adult directives? Barry

I'm going to be different again in that I think this is a problem for the whole troop, not just the Scouts. While I agree that scouts are going to have to be given room and trust to make some very difficult choices here, the adults are going to have to be part of the solution. For some reason this forum demonizes adults to the point that any new scouter taking the advice from here has no where to go except to be dysfunctional. Adult Association IS one of the Eight Methods. It needs to be practiced to learn and grow from the experience. And for newer members here, don't assume I am an adult run promoter. I was called the boy run guru in our Council and was part of very successful boy run units. But there is a place for the adults in successful boy run programs and I know Eagle94 had that experience in his own youth scout troop. So, lets move on. Maybe because I've been there and suffered greatly from the experiences, but the expected number of new scouts next years is not trivial. I have said before that when a troop doubles in numbers overnight, THE PROGRAM IS STARTING OVER. There is no way the scouts can manage the program that doubles in size overnight running business as usual. If the troop (adults and scouts) don't have a plan for the growth, the troop WILL LOOSE at least 50 percent of the new scouts within 6 months. So I think you are right Eagle94 to be concerned about it. So lets not look at this as the scouts will figure it out when the new scouts arrive. Even when my Troop was at its best with mature well experienced 17 year old seniour scouts, the PLC still hated the first four weeks of getting new scouts because of their chaotic mischievous behavior. Remember, up until a boy joins a troop, he has been guided, trained, taught, coached and disciplined by adults all his life. Not other boys near their age, but adults. Ten year old boys by their nature give adults respect simply because their stature gives them the authority to discipline their behavior. But they don't have that experience with other boys. They in their nature will ignore the instructions of boys if they choose because they don't respect their ability to hold them accountable. So it takes some time for new scouts to develop that respect. In the meantime watching the older scouts work with large numbers of new scouts is best described as herding cats. And trust me, the scouts don't like it. Folks think that scouts are comfortable with chaos and misbehavior. They hate it. To get to where your troop can be somewhat ready for this invasion, the patrols have to develop enough habits and traditions that when the big change comes, they will keep on functioning by simply doing what they have been doing. First off, as I said, the troop is starting over. The patrols likely won't look anything 18 months from now to what you will have at this years summer camp. But, if the patrols have a routine of getting up, cooking, eating, assembling for the day, program, lunch, program, free time, cooking, eating, assembling, campfire, crackerbarrel and lights out. They have a place to start. I think it is very important that your patrols have this routine by summer camp because that is where the patrol method will be branded into scouts. What they have after summer camp is likely the best you will get between now and next December. So you have a lot of work to do. Next, there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you can have a functional troop in one year that is ready for the invasion if the scouts and adults don't work together. That in noway suggest a compromise to the boy run principles of the troop. What it means is everybody needs to be on the same page of where the troop is now, and where it wants to go. The scouts need to take the lead, but that only means the adults need to give the scouts authority of making the choices for moving forward. Let me give you and idea of what I mean. While I was SM, I never allowed the any adult to put the Scout Sign up first for any reason. If the adult had the floor but couldn't talk because the room was too loud, the adult walked over to the scout with the authority and asked him for help. The Scout initiated the action for change. In that way, the adults give the scouts respect for scouts directing the program. I agree with the idea of asking scouts for ideas to the problem. Several approaches this and one way would be to have a youth leaders and adults meet together to discuss the concern. Only one adult talks while the others sit in respect to the authority of the scouts. I would have the concerns on paper so that everyone is reading off the same page. Maybe the groups could breakup then with a plan to get together that day, next week or whatever to listen to the scouts ideas. That should lead to other discussions, but AS A TEAM, the group needs to focus ideals for specific goals. Then work as a team for the next year to be ready. Other suggestions are have the ideas the scouts are going to use in writing so that both the scouts and the adults understand what is going on. That way when obstacles pop up, both groups understand the problem and possible approaches to solutions. I encourage troops to purchase the SPL and PL Handbooks and issue them to the PLC and Adults. They are easy to understand and keep both groups working in the same direction. When a question pops up, the adult and scout sit down and pull our their handbook to see if there is direction there. This is how the troop develops the scouts trust for the adults that someone mentioned. This is a difficult balance for a troop with such a challenge, but so long as the there is an understanding of patrol method and the objective of using the method, everyone should be able to move forward. Now I've left out a lot for how to develop the adult scout relationship as it pertains to patrol method, boy run, independent decision making and so on. We can discuss that too, but my main point with this post is to get your scouts working the method now to develop some habits and traditions that will carry them through the big change. It's going to be fun. Barry

Figure out what you want in a tent, then go from there. We use two styles of tents in our troop, car camping and backpacking. The scouts usually bring personal single or two man tents if they want to use a backing tent, as do the adults. The car camping tent hold four scouts. And consider the typical weather you will use the tent. Oklahoma is one of the windiest states in the US. Dome style tents usually hold up better in wind for us. But we typically have treks in the mountains where afternoon showers are common. Lots of choices these days. Barry

You are asking adults with years of experience to answer a question that has changed for us as the adults, scouts and program matured. I guess the answer is really more of "depends". I've asked before, does a 12 year old SPL require the same guidance as the seasoned 16 year old SPL? Does a new troop of five 10 year olds use different leadership than the 10 year old troop of 100 scouts? And I harp on this over and over, but what are the objectives of the program? Does that make a difference when the one year old troop of five 11 year olds receive 25 crossover Webelos? How does a program maintain some kind of control over 30 boys 12 years old and under? I relate to the challenge of trying to get your mind around the basic details of the program structure because of the little experience to start from. And maybe this forum isn't the best place to draw that picture because the are so many different experiences expressed here that it gets mind boggling. There is nothing like experience to clear away some of the clutter. And sometimes you find yourself with obvious choices because your experience might be best described at that moment as herding cats. One active forum member here once said SPLs are only used by self serving Scoutmasters to keep personal control of the patrol leaders. What do you think? The BSA has been using SPLs for almost 100 years. A five scout troop is a different program than 30 new scouts. 100 scouts is quite a different program all together. I think you will find that leadership matures and changes over time and different circumstances. But What one thing can tie these different programs together? What keeps the program going forward in the same direction even when structure and situations continually change? Barry

One other thing. Our program came from the Membership Committee. We invited the UC corp as a team member to help. Adding additional activities and programs can quickly overwhelm and kill a program or committee. So I'm not suggesting the UC corp take on whole programs. It really depends on the make up of the District. We asked only for the help of the UCs to help us identify the weak dens. We then took responsibility for helping those dens. As I said, each district is different in how they can approach issues, but I have seen more good ideas fail than succeed because the work required to make the idea succeed created an imbalance to the overall program that couldn't get righted. You have some good ideas, try to share the work and the wealth. Barry

No, we were looking at helping the first year Webelos leader. We found that most of the weak Webelos leaders were either Wolf Bear leaders who were burned out but couldn't find a replacement for the Webelos years, or they did find the replacement, but their heart wasn't into being a leader and only did the minimum required. So by identifying these leaders quickly, we could attach them to a willing troop where they could offer help. It really wasn't a stretch for most troops because they an adult memeber who had Webelos experience. Each den is different, so the help required was different. But the troop didn't need to help that much to get the den moving forward, and the little they did provide was a huge boost for the Den Leader. Boys identify their expectations of the future by experience of the present. We found that scouts who are bored in the den program relate that expectation to the future or Troop program. By attaching the den to a troop, hopefully the den program becomes fun, AND the boys get to actually observe a real troop program in action and see that it is a new and exciting adventure. It was an easy sell for me. Councils set goals for the Districts and our district came up about 7 crossovers short that year. I pointed out to the DE that if we could get just one additional boy from each Pack to crossover, we would not only surpass the goal by A LOT, we would break all the goals of all the other districts. Imagine what we could do by getting just one additional scout from each weak den. Imagine getting whole dens to crossover. We also created several activities to help the packs with the Webelos dens by helping them get associated with Troops and helping them with ideas for better (easier) den programs. We found that most Webelos leaders are reluctant to contact Troops because they don't know anybody and find talking to a strange leader of a strange troop very intimidating, especially female den leaders. These were in addition to and outside the Round Tables because a lot of leaders can't make RT. We were trying to help make the Webelos program less daunting, especially for those leaders whose hearts weren't really into it. They are the dens where the scouts don't crossover. Barry

Wow, stosh, that is actually pretty good. Our district wanted to confront the Webelos drop out problem when I was the Membership Chairman. Nationally the drop out rate of Webelos to scouts is over 50 percent, and our district was right along that number. We had identified that adult burnout was the major cause of the huge drop out rate. So we came up with a plan to attack the problem by identifying weak Webelos dens and attaching them to a troop hoping the troop leaders would help the den leader plan a better program. All that to say that we created a Red Flag list for the UCs to help the UC Corp identify the weak dens. That was a while ago, so I don't have the list anymore, but the objective was for the UC to be able to evaluate each den from a distance so as not to appear intrusive or judging. We were trying to fix the problem at the front instead of finding the problem at the back or rechartering. The list was only to find weak dens, not try to improve the performance of all the dens. In our studies at the time, probably 30 to 50 percent of the dens fall under the heading of leader burnout. I guess I'm trying to say that if the UC corp can find ways to identify problems at the start with simple little checks, finding solutions is a lot easier. Barry

As the first course director in our district of Scoutmaster Specifics in 2001, I had to spend a lot of time trying to make the whole syllabus flow because some information contradicted itself in other chapters. A few years later I met one of the authors of the syllabus and he said there were three authors who wrote the content. They never met each other and they never saw each others contribution. National took the three authors contributions and assembled them into a syllabus without the authors help. Everything made sense once I learned that. Barry

The university of Scouting does help some, but it still doesn't make a bad presenter all that good. Some folks have the gift, some don't. Our training committee made a huge change simply by looking for leaders who have jobs or a lot of experience in presenting this kind of material. I know for my own Scoutmaster specific course, I found two Scoutmasters who also college teachers. The difference in quality of training made huge leaps. The problem is that it takes more effort to find these people and to recruit them. But once you do, the reputation of the training improves. Barry

Wow, this is pretty good. Barry

Well I'm curious stosh, you are are the most anti-BSA program contributor on this forum. What could we teach a UC that would work with both stosh scouts and the mega troop down the street? From observation, districts with good UCs have good District Commissioners that know and understand the responsibilities. Bad DCs, bad UCs. By the way, I have not been a UC, but I took the training (long time ago) and I believe that most folks don't really understand what is expected of a UC. If we could review that first, we won't be going off into the woods with answers. Does anybody here have a syllabus and manual that can guide us with the BSA's expectations for a UC. Barry

Hmm, to me this says more about your District Commissioner than the new Unit Commissioners. A good DC will not only recruit abled bodied volunteers, they also guide them with be expectations, instructions, training and pep talks. I used to recruit our UCs and I wouldn't even bother with someone who refused training. In my opinion the DC has more power to make change than any other person from the DE on down. But getting the right person for that job is very challenging. Barry

I'm not sure how much weight a retired scouters opinion should carry when discussing how much weekend free time a young parent with a full time job should be willing to give up just to volunteer for their son's unit. As a past member of the Council Training Committee and District membership committee, I can say a few hours away from home on weekends makes a big difference in the number of parents deciding to volunteer their time. And it is getting harder every year. A huge reason Webelos suffers from lack of volunteers is because Bear leaders who are usually mothers typically have no interest in camping, cooking and teaching Boy Scout skills. Now add to that angxiety a weekend away from their family for training in the hot or cold outdoors. Not surprisingly many quit hoping some dad will takeover. And many times none step up. I worked hard with the training committees trying to figure out ways of getting volunteers trained without taking so much of their family time. But it is a huge huge challenge. This doesn't help the Webelos problem so much, but maybe troops should to be expected to carry more of the training load. Our troop requires all new ASMs to attend the totin chit class with the new scouts which is taught by youth training team. I used to teach Woods Tools at IOLS and while I used the totin chit lesson plan, it was really more of an introduction because schedule didn't permit thorough training. Not to mention additional instruction from instructors who had specific skills and knowledge beyond published manuals like sharpening a 3/4 ax. The demands of parents today are a huge challenge for the BSA to qualify unskilled parents to take responsibility for other parents sons. No easy solution. Barry

Yes, the classroom part is what I was responding to with the OP because I used to teach it. I don't think anyone would care if he sat in. As for the SSScouts IOLS comment, I didn't think it worth correcting him since it wasn't part of the discussion. Barry

Council used our district as an example of doing that very thing. Barry

I don't think it's a problem taking the course, most instructors will let him sit in. It's a matter of getting credit. I think Eagle94's answer fixes the problem. As for testing out, I use to teach the course and don't remember any test to give. Plus, a lot of the information given isn't something even an Eagle Scout would have come across in his scouting experience. That's why the course is so painfully boring. Barry

Thanks blw2, I appreciate your post. Yes, I lack the skill to make a point quickly. But read it again because it wasn't about a difference of opinions, it was about denigrating other people to present an idea. If tearing other people down is the only way to express your ideas and opinions, then the words have no integrity and aren't worth expressing. As for calling the kettle black, you could be right. But stosh used to be a minister, he understands the basis of rebuke. Barry

Hi htusa, welcome to the place of ideas and imagination. Please don't take this wrong, but I was hard headed and learned how to work with boys by doing more things wrong than I did right. Honestly, I cringe when I look back at myself. I think most of us do. You aren't ready. If you haven't yet developed the skills to get the desired response from parents without using a condescending approach, you haven't grown enough yet to build a team of parents willing to support you in the most difficult times. The objective of sports is simple. But in the deep woods of values and ideals, the methods of the scouting program today can be a hard sell. Much of the time parents may not understand the program, but they will trust the leader. Parents have a good feel for character and if the adult who is working close with their son is comfortable freely talking down to adults, how much easier would he be talking down to their son? The principle of scouting is guiding scouts to make good decisions based from the values of the Oath and Law. There is nothing scout like in being condescending. Barry

Its this kind of hypocrisy that I have little patience for. You have preached this method of POR to the forum using your two troops as examples for several years. Do you really expect us to believe that it's a coincidence that both troops use the same method. We know they got the same "arbitrary adult" guidance from the same adult SM, who brags often on this forum that he, and only he, is the only adult allowed to work with the scouts. No big deal to those of us who also started troops and understand that adults have to start somewhere. But I am astounded that you don't see the hypocrisy of your demonization of everyone else. And let's for a moment just say your ridiculous assertion that scouts starting with an adult idea is anti boy run. Then the only other possible approach for a new troop is let the scouts start with NO guidance at all. How would that work? Send the 10 year old scouts off into the woods by themselves for a weekend? I have often suggested to new leaders starting new troops to consider using the SPL Hand book, PL Handbook and Scout Handbook to guide their program because it is simple for both the adults and scouts to understand, and it implies more emphasis on letting the scouts make decisions and taking control than new adult leaders are experienced to giving. But what election cycle method do you think those resources would suggest the scouts start using? Does it really matter? Big talk, and to be honest, if you were capable of preaching your scouting ideals without denigrating your fellow brother and sister scout leaders to make your point, I think you have a lot to offer. But you won't or can't and we miss out on some good ideas. But I can see that you don't really get it yet. There is nothing wrong with using 6 months for an election cycle. There is nothing wrong with 4 months or 12 months if it accomplished growth toward the mission because it is just one small tool the adults use to reach big goal. A good scoutmaster knows It is not the end all. If it were, it would be the only method. I had this same discussions with Kudu. He believed that the BSA program was inferior to the Badon Powell Scouts program because he had success with that program's method of selecting the Patrol leader. The SM in Badon Powell Scouts selects the Patrol Leader with the knowledge the scout could stay in that position for several years. Talk about the risk of selecting favorites. Kudu was one of the best scouters I have ever known, he would use that method to programs best intention. But how many other adults understand the method enough to make that impartial selection. My contention was that a good SM could use any style of selection and didn't have to rely on a specific youth organization standard to reach the same goals. And I think I proved it in our discussions. Programs are too big for one small method to have that kind of influence. A good adult leader will always produce good results with what ever tool he is presented because they understand the actions required for growth and not submit to letting the shell of the method limit performance. Its interesting for me that you believe that left up to scouts, your ideals would be their choice. Ironically our PLC 18 years ago was asked by the SM to consider switching from the 6 month cycle election to something closer to your troops POR style. The SM gave them suggestions of the advantage for using the system so they could make the choice with full understanding of it. The PLC seriously considered the suggestion and decided against it because the effort to change the system within their program was not worth the gains proposed. Who was more wrong, the SM for proposing an arbitrary adult idea, or the Scouts for not using the system that might have been a better for them in the long run? Or was anybody wrong? We will never know, but I give credit and was proud of the scouts for looking at the big picture and measuring the risk. Pretty mature approach in my book. On a side note, the SM (me) was disappointed they didn't try, but I also considered that my disappointment was likely seeded from pride. You think your POR style is better, great. But try to explain it's advantages without using condescending straw men to demonize the other troops and the scouts using them. I don't think you can and as a result readers can only move on to the next responses that are without the condescending insinuations. Is there nobody you are afraid of offending? For those of us who can see the big picture because we have the Been There Done That t-shirt, your advantage over most leaders taking over programs is that you started with clean slate and fresh new scouts to experiment your ideals. You didn't have to contend with all the baggage (traditions, habits and routines) from the previous program, so you can't relate with the struggle of changing troop cultures. And you show that through your responses that have a tone of start over. You had the luxury of starting with stoshs arbitrary adult ideas from the beginning. As I said, we understand that scouts need a safe starting place to do their scouting stuff because we all know that it would be criminal to send 10 year old boys off into the dark woods by themselves without any guidance at all. Yep, you by default are that guy that you blindly hate so much on this forums. You are an adult with a vision and idea of methods for scouts to use to reach the vision. Strange you don't see it. That is Ok, I'm here to guide. Barry

It's a tradition that 95% of troops use for their election cycle. Where does is come from, different places in BSA literature that kind of set the tone for the 6 month cycle. Example from the Eagle Requirements list.: While a Life Scout, serve actively in your unit for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility. List only those positions served after your Life board of review date. ***