Eagledad

The District Commissioner and DE can help clear it up. Barry

The following leadership positions count toward Boy Scout advancement. For more information, see the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook (#32501) and Patrol Leader Handbook (#32502A). Scribe The scribe is the troop’s secretary. Though not a voting member, he attends meetings of the patrol leaders’ council and keeps a record of the discussions. He cooperates with the patrol scribes to record attendance and dues payments at troop meetings and to maintain troop advancement records. A member of the troop committee may assist him with his work.

I'm a little surprised by the ignorance here of POR requirements for Eagle. They have been spelled out for a long long time. There are many creative ways for small troops to use them without holding scouts back from advancement. At the same time the Scoutmaster has to figure out if the purpose of PORs is for growth of the scout's decision making skills, or growth of his stature. Barry

From the beginning of the scouting program, the foundation of existence has been to develop character. Over the years the founders have approached the objective of character in many ways, mission, vision, ethical and moral decision making, but in simply boils down to "character". If one where to poll the community of the one main objective of scouting, the one word would be "character". If the parents are polled to what they expect from the scouting program for their son, that one word would be character. And since the beginning of the program, the troop program was designed specificaly for guiding boys to practice habits of the desired character within the bound of the Oath and Law using the patrol method. The "Scoutmaster" has always been given the responsibility for a program intended to develop character. The requirements for the position of Scoutmaster have never, until this discussion, suggested that only the rare person could have the responsibility. It is believed by some of us here that it doesn't take the rare exceptional SM to build a program that gives boys the opportunity to enrich their character. They simply use the program provided and build around the patrol method. However,in the readings of founders of scouting, even they admitted the frustration of adults who ignored the primary of objective of building character and pushed a program different from the plan and drove a program that was shaped more for the SMs own personal desires. And generally those SM's will seek a team to help direct the scouts toward the vision of that particular SM, instead of the vision given by the founders. Even here on the day to day discussions, it is not hard to point out programs that woddle through because the adult leaders that not only don't understand the vision, some simply don't care. They discard what have been given to them and steer off in their own vision. Or many times no vision at all. In it's simplicity from the founders, character is the vision and the SM is responsible for the scouts working toward the vision. Of course the SM can and should build the team to drive toward the vision. But it is very rare that any other adult has the responsibility to manage the program toward the vision as the SM. When the program goes off track, it will always be the SM who is held responsible, not the team. It has been that way since the beginning of the scouting program. One only has to look back on struggling or failed troops in the district or even on this forum note that the SM gets all the blame and the credit, not the team. So lets not trivialize character as an archaic catch word that has little application in today's scouting program or the Scoutmaster who has been held responsible for the vision since the very beginning. When it comes down to the very basics of scouting, the SM and character are the heart and foundation of the patrol method. Barry

The troop quartermaster in our troop has the only working keys to the storage room and trailer. The CC has a backup set only to be used if the QM looses his set. Nobody goes into the troop storage or trailer without going through the quartermaster. He also helps the driver hook up the trailer to the car and verifies everything is in working order. It's a lot of responsibility and they take it very seriously. If one of the adventure crews needs the trailer and the QM, is not part of the crew, he selects a member of the crew to be responsible for the trailer. Usually that scout considers being selected an honor. The troop QM also trains the patrol QMs. They are responsible for the storage, cleanliness and transportation of the patrol gear. From my perspective as a SM, the major skills I wanted the QMs to practice is training and organization. The troop and patrol QMs are in charge and direct the loading and unloading of gear. Even the SPL and PLs take a backseat to their authority with the handling of gear. Barry

Yes; Cheer master, grub master, scribe, quartermaster, APL, PL. We do this specifically to teach leadership, managing, and organizational skills. A new scout typically starts with cheer master or grub master because the skills for those PORs aren't overly demanding for their maturity. The main objectives are for scouts to practice organizing of their specific responsibilities for each meeting, communicating with the PL and members of the patrol, and initiating and directing suggestions and ideas for the patrol. The expectations of each POR is a little more challenging so that by the time they are running for PL, they have a set of practiced skills to start with. Same goes with the senior PORs; the troop scribe, quartermaster and ASPL, each have unique skills for preparation of SPL. Oh, I forgot: only the PL and SPL are elected positions. Barry

Kinkos does binding. We had our Wood Badge Course books bound by them. I have my motorcycle and car maintenance manuals bound there as well. Barry

In general troops stablize to a size the SM can manage. It doesn't matter how many bodies are thrown at it or the style of patrols, troops don't perform well when the program grows out of reach of the vision leader. Barry

Statistically that doesn't work out. The majority of troops that split because they are growing too big generally end up joining back together. Troops generally grow big because the adults have a good design. But it is rare for those adults to split into the 2nd troop, and the result one troop keeps growing while the other struggles to survive. Typically the two troops merge back together in just a few years. This happens a lot with packs also. Unlimited growth is risky and can cause high losses of scouts. The best way to limit troop size is controlled growth or limits on incoming scouts. I know some here think that is a bad idea, but limits force families to consider other troops that are also satisfactory for their son. As appose to Fast growing troops that tend to have higher loss of 1st year scouts because the program suffers with the changes caused by the large influx. I know of one mega troop that is excited to only loose 50% of their first year scouts. Fast growing troops are a complex problem. Splitting more often than not doesn't work well and uncontrolled growth can hurt the new scouts numbers a lot. Limits are tricky too because it risk a reputation of pretentious program for selecting specific families. In reality it is just trying to survive. I won't even suggest giving time the hypocrisy of some folks who preach small troops for best boy run then preach against controlled growth. They need to walk in the shoes of these district and unit leaders. You have to look at these things in the bigger picture. Barry

I'm not the OP, so I'm still confused why you are responding to my post. But it's good to know you have experience with major gaffs. Barry

Sorry, I didn't see the 2nd part of the question. "Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm honored and proud to introduce Eagle Candidate First-Last Name." I shake his hand and sit down. Not very eloquent I guess, but a big deal for me. Barry

I'm not sure what you are talking about, I was responding to the OPs question of introduction. Barry

It's not a proof of maturity, it's a gesture of respect. It has been a tradition in our District since their first Eagle. I'm humbled by the gesture and considerate an honor. Barry

It's up to the scouts. Our philosophy is to encourage scouts to practice independent reasoning and decision making. Controlling their own advancement plan is a big part of that intention. New scouts are guided to ask their PL for help when ever they want to learn the skills and/or pass off requirements. Sometimes the PL takes care of it in the patrol, sometimes he sends the scout to ask the PLC. Our troop has a 45 minute PLC meeting before every Troop meeting and everyone knows that the church is open during that time. Scouts use the time to meet with a MC counselor, work on rank advancement, get coaching for POR, advancement patrol meeting, or whatever scouting business they need to take care of . On camp outs, the PLC always plans a couple hours of free time on Saturday and Sunday and a lot of scouts use that time for skills work. And if several scouts need work on the same requirements, they might ask the PLC to plan a meeting on a Saturday morning. It's all really up to the scouts. Honestly the adults don't pay that much attention because the scouts pretty much take care of it. We don't use instructors or didn't while I was SM) much because we have a large pool of older scouts. Our SPLs quit using them because it was harder to keep them busy than finding an older scout willing to help. Honestly, the adults were not invited in that decision. But the system works, we average 1 Eagle every 1.5 months. My goals when we were developing the program was to remove any obstacle from a scout advancing at his own personal pace. Barry

Not always, but the PLC typically tries to fill three meetings with a theme: rappelling shooting sports, Space exploration, I couldn't see this working, but they actually did a fantastic job of filling three meetings of busy activities. A visiting den of Webelos joined the troop because they were so impressed. Fly-fishing, Bicycling, First-aid, one year the older scouts taught making fake wounds, blood and broken bones. Next meeting the troop simulated a car wreck. First-aid, another year a Air-ambulance was flown in. Fire trucks at another meeting. Car show - a group of scouts working on the Car Mechanics MB planned that one. Very cool. More will pop in my mind, I'm sure. We tried to stay away from typical First Class teaching type stuff. Barry

I'm not a fan of NSPs or same age patrols, there are just to many negatives to overcome with a boy run program. But a good leader can make any patrol style work when the goals are understood. In the big picture, 300 feet is a lot more important than election cycles. A past member Kudu like these kinds of challenges because he believe the rebellious boys had the most moxie to make an independent patrol function best. That was his style and he was/is good at it. But he like the Badon Powell scouts because the SM chooses the Patrol Leader who tends to stay with the patrol several years. Not my style, but as I look at Eagle94's Patrol, I think this might be an approach I would consider to get these scouts running forward. I'm not proud, I look for what it takes. I don't know, my style of leading is watching the growth of scouts. If they are getting bored, not learning skills and not really trying to enjoy the program, then I change things. I think I would push this patrol to be different from the other patrols. I would work with the SPL to try a few things to find what makes it work. I might start pushing them to be a back packing patrol and do everything as if they are going in the back county. I might even give them the notoriety of always hiking a mile in and out of camp. I would sell it as being the extra cool patrol. Yes, it seems hard at first, but it will eventually be something all the patrols want to try. Make this patrol different, make it special. A slightly different uniform that fits their more adventurous image. Different back packing tents, different patrol gear. They would become the experts of packing in light. It doesn't sound like anyone will mind since this patrol is already been given up as the misfit patrol. Done right, this might be the model patrol the troop uses five years from now. Can you imagine these guys becoming the elite scouts of the troop? Maybe, I'm a dreamer. Yes, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

What works best comes down to what gives the best growth. Is one method more challenging than the other? Does the challenge improve the program? I'm a big picture person who likes to think the next SM and the one after him doesn't have to relearn the program to keep up with the scouts. So I try not to get too far off from the BSA models. When troops run off of one mans theories, it doesn't matter how successful the theories work, the program will likely go through a dramatic change with the next leadership. That doesn't mean you stick with what doesn't work (NSPs didn't work for us), but you don't want to get so far away from the BSA that nobody else has a clue either. If you are truly running a boy run program, the elections style don't change performance very much. Barry

I'm thinking along the same lines as qwaze. The meetings aren't going to fix anything, not in the current format. I was also thinking about a overnight campout intended to let them struggle on their own. But one thought the meeting is to grab the guys after opening and take them to a place where you can divide them into two teams, then have a tent set up race. After they finish, sit down and ask them how well they think they did. Ask them if they can do better. Then tell you will give each team a minute to come up with a plan and then race again. This time see how they do. Hopefully they are getting into it. Hopefully you are seeing some kind of team work. Ask them how they did again, Can they do better. Then tell they have one minute as a group to come up with a plan to set the tent up together and time them. After they are through, ask them if that is the best they can do because you are going to ask the older scout patrol to a challenge. See what that does. Did they come together in some way? Does a leader stick out? You need to build this patrol into a team. Seperate them out from the troop program until you get some cohesion. I like quaze' idea of a patrol camp out. The scouts need to change their behavior and that won't happen until the are uncomfortable with their present behavior. They need to be stressed to change. Not stress with authority coming down on them, but stressed because they are making wrong choices. Also nothing like physical stress to build a team. Competition is a great team builder and boys love competition. Those are some quick thoughts anyway. Barry

Just for clarification, there are few of enough of these scout to merge into other patrols, why is that not considered? Barry

Yes. Basically any scout can plan an activity. He does have to propose it to the committee, but that is only to force him to think it out enough that he isn't wasting crew members time. He has to find an adult or adults who will participate, unless the activity doesn't require adults. The crew does only last until the main activity is Completed, but a crew may last as long as 18 months because the main activity like Philmont is planned that far ahead. I think the Scuba Crew lasted a little longer than a year because of the time to get the scouts certified and to plan the trip. The Scouts are responsible for planning, so that may delay the schedule as well. We didn't allow the Activity Crews to meet during normal meetings, so it was common for them to meet just before of just after. And then do their practice or shake down activities on weekends. Once the idea takes off, you can have a lot of outside activities going on. I think we had six crews one year. Several thoughts led us to this idea. One was we wanted scouts to come forward with their dream ideas for adventure. Another was that we thought of ourselves as an adventure troop for all scouts of all the ages. While it was never implied, many scouts viewed high adventure only for the older scouts. We wanted young scouts to come up with ideas as well. One year the snow skiing trek was planned by two 11 year old scouts and it included 20 scouts of all ages. Eventually all outside patrol activities were being done with our activity crews. One crew was created for a service project. We also encourage inner patrol activities as well. In fact the PLC plans two patrol camp out months a year. And the patrol can do their own thing on troop planned campout if they want. Really the objective of the Activity Crews was attempting to remove barriers from scouts so they could be as creative as they want to be. To start it in your troop, create a simple outside activity like a weekend back packing trip, or even a fishing trip, then get a scout to buy in and take responsibility. Use that model and keep calling all the outside activities Activity crews or patrols. I hope that helps. Barry

I know we are missing a lot of details here, but you paint a pretty dark picture. Why do you think these scouts keep coming? Barry

In our case, it wasn't showing an ideal model, it was clarifying parts of it. The scouts were using the model from a copy of a PL Manual by William Hillcourt (Greenbar Bill). But as the saying goes, you don't know what you don't know. The handbook explains how in Patrol Corners the PL discusses patrol business with the quartermaster, grubmaster and so on. But it doesn't say what the discussions are about. Well of course we adults know from our experiences as scouts and assumed it was clear to the scouts. But the new scouts don't have that experience, so it was vague. When we adults simulated the PL talking with the patrol officers, their light bulb clicked on. Most adult leaders think that training gets scouts prepared to function in their POR. It really doesn't. Training has basically two purposes in scouting: It prepares the scout just enough to give them confidence for starting in a new position. And it clarifies confusion of responsibilities or skills of the position, which was the case here. Barry Barry

Are you saying this group of scouts have been together in the troop roughly a year? NSP? Barry

Yes, all the time. They liked to be challenged as I mentioned above. The alternative you asking for is handing them the responsibilities of running a program where all the scouts continually grow from their experiences. You keep suggesting that older scouts don't want to lead younger scouts, If that was the case, then why do adults do it? These scouts are just adults looking for the same satisfaction of successfully running, not leading, but running a program where their actions determine how others will participate in their program. They have ownership of a program where they have responsibility for the lives of other scouts. Can you not see the romance of that vision? We have a motto, let's develop the troop so that adults (18 and older) are out of business. Maybe I'm the problem because that is how our troop runs. Over 40% of our troop is scout 14 and older. There has to be a reason why they like the program. Sure, we have plenty of high adventure, but I find that only 25 percent of the older scouts join a crew at least once a year. A Troop should be a place where a scout likes to go because the program makes him feel good about himself. Ask an older scout how he can make a difference and he will have some ideas. I remember one 16 year old scout who wanted to talk to me because his dad, an ASM, was giving him a hard time because he took a job that would require him to miss the last half of the troop meeting. He said, and I will never forget this: "My dad misses meetings all the time for work and nobody says anything. But if I miss a couple of meetings, the adults get upset". He liked the troop and he wanted to keep coming, but he could only give the troop 30 minutes of his life at each Monday meeting and he didn't want to be hassled. I keep saying that if adults are truly humble, they will learn and grow from listening the scouts. I grew a lot at that moment. After we discussed this for a while, I asked him if he would mind coming in 30 minutes early to coach new grub masters. He loved the idea and boy did he take off with that responsibility. He told me later that he just wanted to be part of helping the troop. It wasn't a babysitting job to him, it was helping young scouts do better. The biggest hindrance to scout growth is adult preconceived ideas. None of us are the smartest guys in the room. But we can listen and change what doesn't work. Our program was pretty successful, but I tell anyone who listens that we did a lot more things wrong than we did right. What made us successful was the willingness to fix problems. I wish I could say fixing a troop to where older scouts like to stay and work the troop program is as easy as flipping a switch, but it takes time because both the older scouts and adults have to grow and mature enough to effect changes. The adults have to quit projecting their idea troop on the scouts and the scouts have to learn to project ideas to improve the program. That takes time to develop, at least for us. But wow what a satisfying feeling of accomplishment when I think back on it. Barry

I remember talking with an older scout who had been with the troop since the beginning. I don't remember how this came up, but the scout said the only thing I remember in training during the early years that helped me a lot as a PL was when the adults modeled an ideal patrol corners meeting. He said everything all of a sudden made sense. The scouts in the new troop didn't have older scout role models to learn from. Barry