Eagledad

I am not a big fan of the Girl Scouts organization because they have been used by political activist with an agenda for over 30 years; their program has suffered as a result. But as a scouter, I am glad they are earning a lot of money for the girls. I just about bought out a little girl who come to our door the other day. Her mom got out of her car to meet me just to make sure my large purchase was legit. The sad part is that since we are on a diet, I gave all the cookies away. Note to self: Kids want more Thin Mints. That being said, I agree with Calico that church leaders need to describe better why the church shouldn't follow specific organizations. However, I'm not sure he may agree as much with me. Church leaders need to be more bold and aggressive in describing why organizations don't fit in Gods plan of moral living so their followers learn what makes them different as Christians. The average Christian today is clueless of the moral habits God demands of them. They are part of the cause for the decline of family values and the youth are suffering as a result. Christians today are ignorant to the point of thinking there are no immoral acts or consequences of sin. What good is it to follow a God and ignore why they are followers in the first place. Note to self: need to hide a box of the Caramel delights next year. Barry

I'm with you I'm with you Calico, but I also came to the OPs conclusion that MB Fairs, Colleges or whatever are here to stay. So I decided to use them for teaching scouts and Troop leaders how the MB process is supposed to work as guided by the BSA. My ultimate goal is for units to learn the process well enough to encourage MBs all year, rather than waiting for fairs or summer camp which is becoming more typical of many troops. If the fairs or Colleges encourage the counselors to attend training once a year before the event, then the District has a current list of trained counselors all the troops can use. The list would get updated every year and the training would remind counselors how the process is supposed to work and the benefits for the scout other than just advancement. And the Troop leaders are reminded every year how the counselor search and signup is supposed work, as per the BSA guidelines. That was my plan anyway. Barry

OK, it's just seems you keep describing the BSA program when you brag about stosh scouts. I guess well done is in order. Barry

After reading this again, it occurs to me that you despise the BSA program so much that you have lost much of the knowledge to really understand the program. You obviously don't realize that the scouts are suppose to eventually accept the vision as their own. And you seem to think that adults aren't expected to step back as the scouts mature, but that is part of the BSA program. You think you are being profound, but you are just doing what the BSA ask. As a result, your leadership is likely more adult run than most Scoutmasters in mature BSA boy run troops. You simply don't know of the tools available to you for building a high performance patrol method program. Let me show you what I mean; lets assume that each of us start with two identical groups of boys of identical ages and experiences. I believe my group will be a functioning independent patrol in half the time of your group with only a 3rd adult guidance from me. How will I do that? We've agreed that scouts require some intervention to provide them the knowledge for moving forward. I will simply give them the Scout Handbook, SPL Handbook, PL Handbook and the BSA Field Book, which have enough vision and guidance in the contents to start a functional working patrol with very minimal adult guidance. It's all there, roles and responsibilities of each member, how to cook, what to eat, how to start fires, set up tents, run meetings, how to dress, and on and on. Most of my guidance will likely be requested by the scouts and in the areas that require some on-the-spot adult wisdom for clairty. Most of the request are usually scouts requesting guidance on character challenges. That is usually the time when suggestions like "just take or your boys"or " what does the law say?" helps encourage scouts through their challenges. But for the most part, the patrol method and operation details that are insequential to the Aims are left up to the scouts and their handbooks. Those handbooks make the 100 yard separation easier to acquire. All I'm saying is that adults who use the tools provided by the BSA are likely less adult run. Barry

You're fooling yourself believing that "take care of your scouts" isn't your adult vision, expectation or goal. Barry

All good stuff, stosh, but nothing in your post addresses subject of guiding scouts to change the troop culture. When it was suggested that adult guidance was needed to change the troop culture, you said; ""I have always found that whenever adults step in to "help" it actually slows things down and along with drinking coffee, I find myself spending more time with keeping the adults out of the way than I do having fun with the boys. It shouldn't be that way. I'm thinking the trial and error that is being addressed here is the adult trial and error attempts. I find that the boys figure things out much quicker when it is THEIR trial and error dynamics in place How can he boys figure it out by THEIR trial and error when nobody tells them the error? How will the scouts figure out how to change through THEIR trial and error if nobody steps in to explain the goals or vision? Isn't "take care of your scouts" simply giving a goal or vision for the scouts to work toward? I think MattR has it right and you haven't said anything to make me think differently. When the scouts are driving the program the wrong way, someone has to step in for a course correction. The correction can be a simple as "take care of your scouts". But I believe it is the responsibilities of the adults to step in and encourage scout growth. That is really what the program is all about. Barry

It's been a while since I bought new shorts, but find a nearby Army/Navy Surplus store and compare their shorts with the BSA shorts. They used to be almost identical in color and appearance. Barry

I'm sure it's my age, but what I hear you saying is that even when the troop culture is going opposite of "take care of your boys", the adults should not provide any guidance because the scouts will eventually figure it out? So help me, what will the scouts figure out since nobody is guiding them of what they are doing? You have briefly been a SM twice while on this forum. How many times have you told the forum that you instruct the scouts to "take care of your boys"? Is that instruction by you the SM not adult guidance? Did we misunderstand? I think it is important because a lot of scouters scan this forum for help and the subject of guiding scouts to make conscious choices in changing their behavior is a challenge for almost all troops and adults. Barry

The reason the BSA created Tigers was to compete against the Campfire program that started recruiting boys in the first grade. Barry

As I said, the pack that took out their Tiger program has had no issues. But if you are really worried that scouts may feel they are missing by not doing tigers, then you aren't taking the adult burnout issue seriously or you just don't believe five years in Cub Scouts burns adults out. I understand, sometimes these things take a while to understand. Barry

You're making it way to hard and my intention is for scouts to get opportunities to earn badges they might not get elsewhere using basic BSA guidelines . You are so afraid of the system getting abused that you are taking away the advantages that a fair can provide. I have no problem with the showcase idea and think it can work too, but I don't think you should be afraid of counselors working with scouts at these fairs. I trust the counselors to do the right thing if they are instructed of the true intention of the fair. I was going to instruct the counselors to counsel the scouts the same way they counsel scouts outside of the fair. Don't set different deadlines or completion goals because we want scouts to expect and follow the same routines and expectations of counselor anywhere. Use the resources provided at the fair as best you can and then make other arrangements with the scouts if needed. Just make sure to never be alone with a scout. I would even suggest they use a different locations if they access for badges that would do better in a different environment like science, aviation, and outdoor activities like hiking, biking and swimming. I am not suggesting that the organizers arrange these badges, they just shouldn't limit the opportunities. The fair is a good place to teach counselors how to do their counseling better. Part of my motivation for running the fair this way is to teach the Troops how they are supposed to use the MB system as guided by the BSA and how MB counselors should work with scouts. I learned over the years that district events set the example for how units should run their programs. In this case, troops in our district developed some really bad habits with the MB system they learned from our old MB Fair. I wanted to change that back around. Another advantage of the Fair is that it provides annual MB Counselor training. Our district has started doing that with a couple of trainers from our troop. They have their own district trainers now, but since we were already training our counselors, we help the district to get started. As I said, the district can change bad trends by running district events the right way. I also did that in our District training course as well. Barry

Sometimes, but I wasn't talking about management in this case. I was talking about a culture of actions, attitudes and styles within the culture, especially from the leaders. The culture includes how scouts use the oath and law in all their actions and decisions. Our troop works towards a culture of what we call servant living. In other words scouts decisions and actions with serving others before oneself. Servant leadership is part of that culture and really sets the most powerful example. It's really an attitude that sets how scouts should treat each other. But my point was that servant lifestyle of leadership doesn't have to be taught or guided once the culture is set. The older role models instilled the attitude and leadership habits to the younger scouts simply by their actions. At the same time, if the scouts are showing some bad leadership habits, skills, or styles that aren't necessarily scout like or desired, it takes outside intervention to change culture and is done best by guiding the change at the older scout role models. I'm sure my points are were already obvious to most folks here, I just thought worth repeating since there was some discussion of training in their somewhere.

A pack in our district dropped the Tiger program completely. After five years without Tigers, their numbers were the same as the numbers six years previous with the Tigers. Barry

The discussion has gone so many different directions, I don't really know what its about now. But, leadership styles tend to follow the examples set by the older scout role models. A culture develops over time and it sets the expectation of the leadership for the younger scouts. So if a troop wants to change the style of the present leadership, it typically has to be changed by outside intervention (SM guidance) at the higher levels of the youth leadership. Barry

I think the real reason they turned it down was because it was so very different from their typical MB Fair. They liked the old fair format and couldn't understand why I felt going this route was such a big deal. As for the work, I showed them that this fair required 10 percent of the work and 10 percent staff of their previous fairs. The only additional requirement was asking the school for two additional Saturdays. Usually I can sell these ideas, but I think they were miffed that I stood my ground. I was really busy at the time, so I didn't mind being removed. Barry

MB fairs can be awesome, you just have to think outside the box. The problem with fairs is they skip many of the actions that help develop growth. In most fairs, Scouts aren't expected to find the counselor, contact the counselor to make arrangements for meetings, fill out the MB Cards, and get a SM signature. Those are all actions of growth for making independent decisions and are skipped. Add that most fairs require the scouts to attend a full day even if they only want to take one MB. While they aren't asked, many counselors at fairs cut corners so the scouts can complete the requirements in one hour. At no point in the process of typical fair are scouts required to make decisions, much less think. In fact, Fairs are so much like typical school days, the scouts forget they are at a scouting event. But it doesn't have to be that way, MB Fairs can be an opportunity to gives some rewarding growth experiences toward their character and independence. It can be a different kind of scouting activity that helps a scout feel mature and adult during his experiences. We can even add other activities to enhance the experience since we have the facilities. I proposed such an event based from a district MB Fair in another state. I think Ohio, but that was 20 years ago. Here is the awesome MB Fair I propose to the district that would turn the event back into a Boy Scout event. The fair would be three weeks long. Basically a Friday night and three Saturdays. There are no sign ups, Scouts just show up Friday night of the first weekend to meet counselors and discuss expectations. Counselors stand next to a display or presentation that describes their MB so passing scouts interested in the specific badge can stop and ask questions. From the information the Scouts get from the counselors, they choose their classes and build their schedule. The scouts fill out the required MB Cards and get the SM signature and then present the card to the counselor to finalize meeting times. Then, the scout shows up to the fair the following three Saturdays to take the classes he chose. He is free to come and leave at anytime. Even though the fair is open for three Saturdays in a row, the scout and counselor can make other arrangements for other meetings. Example would be swimming, auto mechanics and a visit to the airport of the Aviation badge. The counselors will be encourage to help the scouts grow from the experience and not just turn the event into a MB grab. At the same time the district will provide adult training courses since they have the facilities for three weeks. The troops can set up displays for visiting Webelos. The Packs could even do their Pinewood Derbies. Hey, it's a fair. This is much easier to plan because it only requires the organizers to provide spaces for the counselors and training organizers. Fair Organizers don't have to keep track of anything or anyone, which is a huge undertaking in our district. There you go, an awesome MB Fair that doesn't ignore any guidelines in the advancement handbooks and provides opportunities to earn some hard to find MBs. Scouts are expected to make independent decisions for choosing the badges and meeting the counselors at the arranged times. They don't skip any part of the guidelines and they are treated as adults instead of middle school students. This is the plan I presented to the District and was turned down. Why? LOL, Because the district leaders didn't want to be responsible Boy Scouts leaving the fair without their knowledge. Adults can come and go as they please, but not the scouts. It appears independence can only go so far. I was replaced. Barry

It has been and still taught a lot, but what is called leadership in the training has been redefined as management on this forum. Ironically, "taking care of your scouts" is a character and citizenship emphasis with leadership skills as the byproduct. Simply making decisions within the definition of the POR responsibilities using the oath and law as guidelines leads to developing habits of character and citizenship. Servant leadership habits are a result of those decisions. The reason technical leadership discussions don't go very far on these forums is because they don't add much information to how we develop leadership in our programs. "Take care of your scouts" pretty much says it all. Barry

You have very good insight Cambridge. I was in scouting a lot of years to understand what you see now. Well done on your efforts toward keeping your program moving forward. Burnout is complicated in some ways by how it effects adults and scouts. When I was working with packs, I explained to the leaders that all they needed to do for happy scouts was keep the adults happy. Do what it takes to build a program where the parents and leaders enjoy coming, and you will find scouts excited to continue coming. I know it sounds backwards, but unhappy cub scouts is a different kind of burnout than scouts who have been scouting too long. Unhappy cubs are basically just bored of the program. Happy adults typically provide fun and exciting programs that makes scouts look forward to the next meeting and next year. I also agree fully with Cambridge's point that repetitive programs drive scouts away. Not so much in Cubs because each year is a different program provided the adults present them correctly. But I said a few times here, typically troops that can't hold on to their older scouts suffer from repeating the first class program over and over. As Cambridge says, step up the program as scouts mature because challenges energize each one to better themselves. Raising the bar forces the program to mature up to adult level challenges for the scouts. That is why even large mature boy run programs require so few adult leaders to maintain a high level of performance when it gets moving under it's own momentum. There really is very little adults can do better than 16 and 17 year old scouts. And if every scout is challenged, the program should always be changing because each scout has his own dream of the best troop program. It is quite something to watch when it gets going. Barry

Me think you protest to much. I keep saying I don't care how you plan your conferences and BORS and you are still being defensive. I also don't care how many adults it takes to support your program, just understand that other programs are different. Barry

You are different because you are passionate and that makes all the difference. You will find that the majority of members of this forum are passionate about scouting, so they are the exception rather than the norm. It's that way for most forums. I learned a long time ago in come classes that the normal person gives about 20 months in volunteer type responsibilities like churches scouting and other non profits. And I found that to be pretty much true when I started watching the numbers. You will even find that in youth sports as well. So, in a program like youth scouting, the organization can expect about two years of a high level of effort before the volunteer starts to loose interest. They will still put out a good level of effort a third year, but it goes down hill after that. Burnout wasn't a huge problem for the Cub Scouts before Tigers because three good years basically got the scouts through the best of the program because the burned out leader was willing to stick it out for what was left. But when Tigers came, leaders were now fading during their bear year, not Webelos. That was different because Bear leaders were still looking at two more years of effort. What makes it worse is the Webelos program is a lot of outdoor and boy scout type skills. 90% of Bear leaders are mothers with little or no experience outdoor or scouting experience. The BSA is changing the Tiger program around and putting more responsibility on the parents, but we found even with the help of parents, a Pack have to add several volunteers just to maintain a successful Tiger program. Why is this a big problem, well we found after a lot of interviews that burned out leaders give lousy programs. Even though a family is willing to finish the Cub program, the scout translates his Webelos experience to the future troop experience and uses the crossover as a convenient time to drop out of scouting. Nationally less than 50% of Webelos crossover into troops. We directly correlated around 65% of those drop outs to dens with burned out leaders. You only have to compare the fun dens to the dens with burned out leaders to see the difference. I personally believe that the BSA would see a significant increase in crossovers over five years if they took Tigers out of the Cub program. I know some scouters in other areas who came up with the same conclusion and added if National would move the 2nd year Webelos to the Troop program, it would raise the crossover numbers a lot more. I'm not a sure because I think there is level of maturity gained that last year. Anyway, I hope that explains burn out a little better. Barry

Sometimes we can be too smart for ourselves. I had visited a couple troops that elected SPLs annually instead of biannually. It seem to work well for them because it gave the SPL enough time to get used to the job and still have time to advance the program with their personal ideas. So I proposed the idea to the PLC and they scratched their heads to what the troop would gain. I am usually a pretty good sales man, but they saw the change as more work than gain and said move on. So as you wisely noted, the real differences was how they handled their program within the tradition we were using. I still would have liked to have seen how it worked. LOL Barry

Yep, and that was based from the discussion trend of justifying scheduled conferences and BORs because the adults are too busy during meetings. I was the SM of a big boy run program and we certainly had the time. I wasn't saying your troop should be like ours. Now maybe your troop is struggling for adult time, I stand corrected. But then I would ask, will you change the routine of your conferences and BOR schedules later when the adults have more time? I have never heard that to be a goal in any troop. Same goes with my comments on patience. If teaching scouts the skill of patience is in fact the primary reason for long periods of time between BORs and conferences, then I applaud the attempt toward character growth. But it appeared to me in the discussion to be a disingenious attempt to raise it unworthy to discuss. I'm only saying that I have more respect for "we have always done it this way and see no reason to change" rather than covering our pride with a less truthful reasoning. That is why I said, and still say that we shouldn't feel pressured to make up noble reasons to cover ourselves in subjects that have little consequences to a scouts experience in the program. If you feel that kind of pressure, then something else needs to change. Barry

That' brilliant! Didn't someone else say something like that? OH YES, it was me: "Why can't you just say, "we do it this way because it works for us." ? Does every tradition, process or habit in your unit have to be justified by nobility of the effort? Can't it be justified because it flows well in your program? What next, Thursday Troop meetings are the best because it forces the scout to practice loyalty? Let's step back a little and present some ideas without feeling like we have to defend our reasoning. At least with stuff like this." Barry