Eagledad

It seemed our first year first campouts were rainy the first night, forcing them to set up camp in the rain. Their thorns on that campout was the rain. Two years later the rain was their best memory. I never told them that I always prayed for rain on those campouts. Barry

I come from the camp of not co-Eding the troop program because my experience is that the adventure nature of prepubescent boys don't mix well with the organizational nature prepubescent girls, The result is neither group grows much from the experience. However, I think co-ed is fine after puberty because the maturity of their adult nature does mix well together and is a benefit for growth.. This I believe corelates with qwazse's experience of junior high age youth. I have the been their done that shirt. Barry

I agree. The struggles come from lack of understanding the purpose of the structure. The scout program competes with two divergent basic instincts. The prepubescent instinct is to play. Playing is the practice of survival that theoretically prepares the youth to compete in their adult life. The adult instinct is to compete in status. The higher status in the herd provides better benefits of life. Just about everyone has these instincts to some degree. The struggle for scouting is the youths drive to play doesn't fit in with the adults drive to compete. If the adult had the youth scouting experience, their fond memories of play balance or humbles their instinct to compete. You can see why the adult without youth memories is going to use their instinct to compete for driving the program. What are the ways to compete in the troop program? Advancement and Leadership. Unfortunately, advancement and leadership are the easier and most apparent methods of competing in the program, which is why they often take front stage. When the youth drive for fun is balanced with the adult drive to compete, the adult will blend competition with the fun for the goal of scout growth. The structure of Elections and patrol social order are some of the challenges of making right and wrong decisions. So a healthy program uses the balance of the youth instincts and adult instinct for growth. We just have to understand where to balance. Barry

I don't know. The perception is outdoors fun. Just about all of scout marketing is outdoor activities. But I agree that the training has the perception of organized activities with very little balance of scout run. The point of my post is that scouters with a youth scouting experience are more likely to let scouts choose their own activities. Or at the very least, not focus program on the advancement list. As a youth, they remember what was fun, and not so fun. So, they jump start to that part of the experiences. Barry

The Commissioner Corp is only as good as the District Commissioner. I personally belive that the District Commissioner is the most important scouting in the district. The DC controls or has heavy influence in all the the District Activities. Barry

Quality control is basically training. Adults hate to be told they are doing it wrong, so theoretically training should start them in the right direction at the begining. But, the BSA is learning from the experience of bringing in female adults. One of the ironic results of the old training courses is that they set the wrong example for new leaders. The reason Woodbsdge was changed was because leaders were trying to mimic the Woodbadge course. One big example was adults eating their meals with the scouts. National realized that it needed a more basic style of training designed with inexperienced adults in mind. That is what the courses are today, believe it or not. Other than watching and learning in a functional scout run troop, I'm not sure how to get new adult leaders up to speed. Barry

I've told the story many times here of the SM of a 6 month old troop calling to ask what activities scouts can do on campouts besides advancement. When I suggested a few hours of free time, he couldn't allow it because the scouts would just go out and get into mischief. That SM was never in scouts as a youth and I've observed over the years that adult leaders without a youth scouting experience have a different expectation of the scouting experience than those who did have a youth scouting experience. To be fair, they aren't purposely taking the outing out of scouting, they just don't know. They start by doing what is easiest, and that is following instructions for advancement. And while I enjoyed working with, and mentoring, many female adult leaders, bringing them into the troop program as leaders changed the program a lot because they didn't bring with them a boy scout youth scouting experience. Of course male adults without the experience are just a problematic, as I pointed out in my example above. But women, at least in our area, make up around 50% of the adult leaders in troops. It's just a guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if 75% of new adult troop leaders today didn't have a youth scouting experience. So, we shouldn't be surprised of a trend where scouts are restricted from creative freedoms and decisions. Barry

That is interesting. We once organized a Trooporee with three other troops. I could see that being interpreted as taking funds away from the District Camporee. I don't think the rule existed then, but if it did, we would likely have figured a way around it because our Trooporee was so much better than the Camporee. Barry

What about the dogs. Barry

I once did a Tim the Tool Man Taylor skit for a pinewood derby announcement. Tim tries to show Al how to make a pinewood derby but uses all the wrong tools (chainsaw) and makes a mess. The skit was just to make a boring announcement fun and was not a how-to of making a pinewood derby. We did that on a Saturday. That was 25 years ago, so I don't remember much of it, but you could do something like that with a clumsy character trying to show how to set up a tent with a straight person fixing the mess. Barry

Very cool. Have you done a camping trip with a pack? It's not like camping in a troop. 90% of the campers either have never camped or have very little experience. Most will have to borrow any gear they bring. And meals are easier done for the whole pack because finding gear and cooks for smaller groups is a challenge. I'm a big believer in freed time, but cub age families really need more planned activities, even for free time. Those Tigers are as cute as can be, but they are slippery little devils if they are busy. As for how to present it; the presentation needs to be fun, funny and entertaining. or you will find yourself spending more time trying to quiet down the scouts. I will work on some ideas. Barry

First off, in your 1000 or so posts, I can’t recall you saying one positive thing about the BSA. Second, if you don’t preach it, you don’t teach it. The BSA vision is building character. That’s what the organization preaches, and that is what they teach. Not everyone is in it for the vision, but most are. The moral standards of character is still noble. Barry

Actually its the urban areas with traffic lights that cause much of the problem because the following drivers will take risks to keep up with the lead driver when lights change between vehicles, or they quickly change lanes when traffic gets heavy. I've witnessed two near collisions in those scenarios. It's better that each driver gets the next stop on their own. That may still be only a few blocks apart, but the following driver isn't being motivated to catch up. As for the van without a 2nd driver, might consider a mature scout who can help navigate and attend with the passengers. I even did an Eagle BOR in that situation on the way to Philmont. Barry

A few lesson s learned from van trips. Two drivers per vehicle are a must. Switch out every two or three hours is recommended. Gas stops and snack/food stops take three times longer with scouts because they are painfully slow. We found Scouts and adults should wear uniforms so the store and restaurant employees know who all those kids running around wildly belong to. Travel is the only time our scouts are required to wear a uniform. Make sure all drivers have the lists of phone numbers and designated stops. We even include copies of health forms for each vehicle. Don't caravan or follow each other. The BSA suggest it, but travel is safer when the following vehicles aren't trying to keep up in traffic. Even with drivers driving at their personal comfortable speed, we were never more than 10 minutes apart after a 3 hour leg. Just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Have a great trip. Barry

A few thoughts; I seem to remember crews taking a train to Philmont from Denver. troops and churches might help get a crew to Philmont using their own vehicles. We did several backing trips through summer camp high adventure programs. That was 20 years ago and the economy may have stopped those programs, but they were all over the U.S. and basically just provide a guide and the rest is on your own. Barry

Ah the good ol days.

Yep, great post. I agree with most of it, not all. But, you didn't really address the question. Starting a National program from the bottom doesn't work. Been there done that several times. In fact, as a council JLT Chairman, I was part of a national group of other council training representatives communicating with National on their NYLT development. They didn't use one suggestion from our group. At this point in the chaos of all the other stuff going on in the BSA, overhauling the Cub program is likely a very low priority. But, that doesn't mean we can't talk about great ideas. Barry

My doctor told me that if I want to prevent replacing my knees with artificial knees, I had to give up running, backpacking and mountain biking. Road biking is how I get my exercise now.. Barry

This is the problem. Venturing Crews are generally started by adults with the passion for the activities. And more often than not, these are adults burned out with the troop program. But, once the sons and daughters of those passionate adults move on, so do the parents and they leave a void of adult leadership with the same passion. The average life of a Venturing Crew in our district is 3 to 5 years. Troops that create Venturing Crews for their older scout program do a little better, but even they struggle to keep the program active. Barry

So, how should we know? Barry

This describes the program our pack experimented with and it turned out very very successful as you expected. Sadly, the leaders who gained the knowledge from the experiment moved on and were replaced by leaders who didn’t grow from the experience. Not their fault, new leaders are expected to follow BSA published guidelines. I ran into the same problem with youth leadership development experiments. Without a supported published standard of guidelines or syllabus, different ideas fade with future generations. Big changes have to come from the top. So, how can we influence the top to make changes? Barry

How should we know? Is it in training? Is district sending leaders information? Do you have a source? Barry

I can’t say what is hurting scout membership today because there are to many new variables with adding girls, bankruptcy, and COVID. But, 10 years ago I could show the biggest membership killer in the BSA was the Cubscout program. Less than 30% of Tigers end up joining a troop. While I believe National has made some bad policy decisions on the troop program over the last 30 years, the program over all doesn’t have big membership drops after a scouts first year. While history does show some troop membership drops, the number is difficult to analysis because much of the drop is mostly reflective of Cub membership trends. If the Cub program were changed to where 50% of tigers made it to troops, it would be a huge increase for all the BSA programs. Barry

Quit right! I reread my post and saw my words differently. My apologies to all. I was looking at this as 2 friends at a campfire where the context would have been seen with a smile. But that’s where social media fails. Again, my apologies. have a great day. Barry

You’re doing it wrong. As qwazse is so eloquently saying, passion of scouting comes from doing scouting. Growth of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful comes from the experiences of scouting, not from quoting the Scout Law. If a scout is asking what does he get for that, he probably shouldn’t be doing that because he is not being rewarded with fun. Scouts will eventually learn to recite the Oath and Law after reciting them a hundreds times at a hundred scout activities. Your challenge is getting them to come to those hundred activities. Barry