Eagledad

More often than not, JASM responsibilities are smaller roles used for temporary situations. Our troop was a patrol method based troop of around 90 scouts. Anyone who understand patrol method understand the challenge for a big troop. One of our mottos was "Put the adults out of business" so that if the adults didn't show up, nothing changed. It is tempting to fix new problems with adults, but we strived to use scouts instead. One 16 year old approached me because he could only attend the first 30 minute of a troop meeting and was unreliable for campouts. He really enjoyed our troop and really liked working with younger scouts. He had no desire for Eagle, but was a really sharp scout. He ended up meeting new Grub Masters and Cheer Masters 30 minutes before the troop meeting and help them get up to speed with their job. He was really good too, he showed them how to search for cheers, songs, skits, recipes and so on. But more important he coached them how to communicate with member of the patrol to delegate and organize. Typically the new scouts get the Cheer and Grub Master, so it worked very well. And the new scouts really grew fond of him. He was typical of how older scouts are important models for the young scouts. The older scouts don't even see it. One Scout took on verifying troop first-aid equipment and policies. Another scout researched and wrote guidelines for drivers who pulled the troop trailer. Our Quartermasters typically do that job, but the JASM took it a step farther to insure a firm troop policy. When our troop received 27 new crossovers one year, a 16 year old scout took on the job to help the Troop Guides organize with schedules and training. The troop was trying a new new scout program and it was complicated with three NSPs. It was too much for Troop Guides to work with scouts and their parents, and plan their patrol meetings. JASM was the perfect job to help because he could help manage issues as they popped up and not take the Troop Guides away from their scouts. The Troop Guides like him so much that a permanent position was created. But the SPL killed it two years later because we had developed the new scout program well enough that a JASM was nolonger required. However, the lessons learned and guidelines developed by that JASM stayed with the Troop for years. It was honestly an adult job that we didn't want an adult doing because we wanted the new scouts to see a true boy run troop in action. 27 scouts is overwhelming for most troops. That scout did great. Scouts who volunteer are not looking for POR credit for advancement. As I said, they have peeked with the normal program. They are looking for non typical responsibilities to serve. Not all scouts stay in the program to serve the troop, some like the outdoors, some like hanging out with friends, some like service projects. So even though a scout may have the maturity, they aren't looking for servant responsibility that we typically give the JASM. I will try to add jobs as I remember them. Barry

We found that if the program is progressively maturing, scout growth starts peaking around age of 16. That is when they have mastered most of the skills, leadership development, and character development that a normal program can provide. They are typically better than the adults at the scouting game. So to keep their growth continuing, we start giving them more adult type responsibilities. JASM works perfect for that and they typically do very well. Barry

Its been said (even by you) that most scouters have to be untrained from their parental instincts because a boy run program takes an objective open mind. Eagles adults are typically just Eagle "parents" when they start volunteering. While I am not an Eagle, I certainly had to be deprogrammed to grow and move forward as a scouter of a patrol method troop. And I learned as a scout in a patrol method Troop. Patrol Method was all I knew. Barry

Sounds like fun. I'm sure they are providing a list of the equipment you will need. As for the rest, just have fun. Barry

I have never seen a scout loose a challenge based on an adult leaders opinion. The adults are more incumbent to present factual evidence than the scout. And while it seems the adult here is taking a lot of hits, typically it is the scouts who are pushing the boundaries. And it is more often than not usually the scout's parents forcing the challenge. Barry

I don't doubt your observations Krampus. I was just a little surprise. I did kind of take the "walk on water" as meaning to have a bit of an Eagle Ego. While I have seen brand new Eagles strut around a bit, that wore off pretty fast. I have never seen it with adults. But like I said, No doubt they are out there. Could be my Ego shadowed theirs. I am not an Eagle, but I probably thought a lot of myself as a Scoutmaster. Now we did have one adult Eagle whose personality always lite up the room just by his presence. But he was also an Air Force General who graduated from the Air Force Academy, so we took it in stride and really enjoyed him. Generals are a different breed. The one benefit of his occupation was he expected respect for rank, so he gave full respect to the position of Scoutmaster, whether or not the SM deserved it. He's a good guy and we are still very good friends. He is the head of our Experimental Aircraft Association and recently got me a personal tour of a Ford Trimotor. Very cool. Barry

Glad to see you back Beav. I knew there was something up at National back when they restricted the ceremonies where Cub Scouts were held up-side-down while receiving their Bobcat badge. If their justification had been risk of physical harm, I would have accepted that. But their justification is to prevent "hazing". Hazing! Barry

The third point of the three points for success is build a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Just about every successful unit has a group of adults like this. Our SM did something similar to TAHAWKs SM. Barry

That is interesting, I can't recall a single Eagle who thought they walked on water. Maybe it's my sunglasses; I wear polarized and sometimes they have a funny affect on things. Barry

What is that saying, there is no selfless act. What is it about the steps to earning Eagle that are supposed to make that person special? As a SM, I never paid much attention to the scouts's advancement. More accurately I never took it or made it personal. Growth and maturity are my responsibility, ambition is their responsibility. About the only thing that stands out to me as a specific for Eagle advancement is the Eagle project. But even then I don't really pay that much attention because I have over the years already learned the scout's temperament, character and personality in the actions planning, leading and managing. Rarely is the character of the Eagle Scout different from when he was a First Class, Star and Life Scout. I know the scout pretty well by the time he is working on his project, so my respect for the scout doesn't change when he gets Eagle. What has the Eagle scout done that sets him to such high expectations over any other scout? When my dad earned Eagle back in the 40's, he said that a local judges were the EBOR because at that time in our culture judges were expected to have high moral character and the best judges of it. So is the Eagle really just about character? What about skills? I once read that the Army looked specifically for Eagles for the D-Day invasion because they without question were leaders and knew first-aid. Pretty tall respect for such an important event in history. I also learned that in the day, less than 3% of all scouts earned Eagle. I was a scout in the 60's in a Troop of 80 for five years and we only had one Eagle during that time. Of course when I see an Eagle do something that is not expected from an Eagle, I am disappointed. But thinking back on all the Eagles acquaintances and scouts over my lifetime (that is a lot), I can honestly say that most of them have above average character in most ways. True, Eagles do learn more first-aid than most people and they get to try their hand a leadership as well, but could it be possible that most Eagles are just representative of who they are rather than what scouting did for them? Oh of course I've seen immature Eagles do some immature things, but their was still something a little special about them. The one and only scout I can remember who I felt maybe lacked in showing the Eagle character was pushed hard by his parents. Good kid but never had a chance to follow his own dream and you could see it in his eyes. Our youngest Eagle at 14 is now a very highly respected software inventor. But I remember a 14 year old very nerdy scout who on some days challenge my patience. The reason he got his Eagle was because he was very ambitious and smart enough to sail through Merit Badges.But was this scouts selfless in his character? Very much so. He had shed his immaturity by 16 years old and was a enjoyable adult to be around. He is still a nerd, but he is showing off his leadership skills as the CEO of a very successful company. What is very interesting about this young man is that his ambition has always been about challenging himself. It has never been about material rewards. He only got the Eagle because it was handed to him. It was never a big deal. I struggle to judge the expectations of Eagles because I've got to know about the real life trials these men go through before and after they earn the Eagle. While many have their bad moments in life, they seem to still stand above most in the way they treat other people. Even here on this forum, the Eagles kind of stand out. Barry

Well lets see, as the district commissioner, I'm starting a new troop and I get to choose between Eagle94 or Billy Bob to be the SM. Hmm, thinking, thinking....... Barry

The discussion is about the BSA changing their program to accept girls in cubs and troops. The CO option is irrelevant to the discussion because a total program change would be required just for CO's to have a choice. Barry

It's a tough question. Can you live with this or should those boys miss any kind scouting experience to save the integrity of scouting? It's nothing new, even Badon Powell and Hillcourt struggled with this frustration. Barry

It kind of gets back to that if the program is fun and not causing harm, is it a good program? One thing national knows is the odds of a scout quitting one troop and joining another is very small. I don't know that number, but from my experience a District Membership Chairman, I would say it's less than 10 percent. So we have to ask ourselves, does a successful very adult run troop have value for the scouts in that program? I can't imagine that a boy doesn't grow even a little bit in the most adult run program. As a volunteer for the district or council, you hope that the troop will get adults who are willing to train, learn, grow and change. Experience is everything for growing and improving a program. Some adults learn and change and some don't, but the saying, "Don't cause more harm" is important for districts and Councils managing units. Barry

ONLY ONCE! It is my experience any adult who defies the guideline of only the SM or SPL talking scout business to scouts is on the verge of abuse because they lost control. Our troop has restricted several adults from the scouts after these incidents. I do agree that scouts need to learn to stand up for themselves, but getting scouts to trust that the adults really are giving them the power to lead and manage their troop is a fragile ideal that takes time to develop. Scouts know when they really have the freedom to make their own right and wrong choices. The SM sets the level of respect between the scouts and the adults. When that respect isn't equal, the scouts will always be the boys and the scouters always the adults. Barry

You're just kidding yourself stosh. All troops are designed by the adults, so whether they choose NSPs patrols or traditional mixed patrols, the adults set that style in place. Lets not demonize one style over the other because the adult personalities and situations are very important to the performance of their troop. Are adults of a successful program supposed to change to be politically correct? Better to learn the dynamics of growth from the different styles of patrols so they can be applied appropriately to the circumstances of the environment and characteristics of the adults and scouts in the unit. Barry

Ahhh, needing to be the smartest guy in the room are you? It might have worked except you have been in the same discussions since you join the forum using "traditional patrols" to mean "Mixed aged" as opposed to "aged base" like NSPs. Barry

No it's the same, just a different way of saying it. The reason your scouts use "With all due respect" all the time with no problems is because their Scoutmaster enforces the respect. Barry

Pretty good stuff. However I have never seen "Respectfully, sir, this is a boy's meeting." work very well without the SM having the SPLs back. Adults will give up their pseudo respect the moment they feel the subject of the interruption trumps the kid's junior title. True respect has to be earned even in a boy scout troop and that won't happen without a SM running interference for the SPL. The a Troop is a boy's size experience of the real world. But, the SM has to protect the frail Troop experience from the intrusive blunt real world for a boy to grow. Barry

It can go both ways. Interesting story: We have a Troop in our District that has a tradition for being one of the best troops in our town for over 70 years. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop end up doing great things at the District and Council levels. Typically Scoutmasters from this troop become Silver Beavers. And they deserve it because they are the cream of the crop volunteers. Anyway, this troop had two really really good Scouts who had the talents to run a troop. They were good friends of my son, so I knew them well. The Scoutmaster and ASM who were boy run savvy gave these boys as much rope running the troop as they could handle, and they could handle more than most adults. During their last three years, the ASM took over as the new SM and the two scouts alternated as the SPL position. It was just a title because the two work closely together in running the troop. The Scoutmaster was very capable and respected and became District and Council training course directors during his SM tenure. ALL appeared well from the outside and the Scoutmaster was about to earn his Silver Beaver. The Troop was doing well and doubling in size. Then the two scouts aged out of the troop and left for school in the East. The PLC was without a leader and the SM didn't know how to get younger scouts up to speed. See it wasn't that the SM was a bad leader, he let these two young men run the troop, and run it very well. But what he didn't do was teach these young men about considering the future of the troop after they left. As someone said, it is easier for adults to do the work then to train and teach the scouts. That is exactly what these two scouts did to their troop. They carried the load of running the troop because it was easier than watching the younger scouts struggle to meet their expectations. They didn't see the harm they we doing, but the SM should have. However, he was so busy with his other responsibilities, and the troop was running so well that he neglected to ask a few questions. In one years time, the troop lost a 3rd of the scouts because it stopped functioning. The SM (who is a very fine person) was so embarrassed that he retired as SM and disappeared from scouting. So, it can happen to just about anybody, including one of the best SMs in the district with two of the best scouts in the district. As I got over myself as the district boy run guru, I started to pay more attention to adults than me. You have heard me say before that Scouting is an adult program to help boys become adults. It is not a boys program to be left up to boys. I only have to point out that every time a problem pops up on this forum, it is blamed on the adults. And as a result of some members here pushed it to the point that adults are in general viewed negatively. It is a ridiculous assessment of our wonderful program because adults are critical to the success of the program. But, it is also true that a troop is only as good as the adults running it. And the adults are only as good as their experience and training. As a result of my experience in scouting, I know that one person can influence big changes. But for those changes to have a positive lasting impression, they have to work within the mentality of the average volunteer. That is why I harp on not building a program that is counter to the BSA materials. How can the average person do at least the minimum average performance if they have no resources to go from? Blow hard adults who think think themselves as modern day Badon Powels are more often than not wrecking balls. I learned from a smart CEO that there are some basics to building success; 1. Have a vision or goal. 2. Have a basic plan toward that vision, 3. Have a team that believes in the vision and the plan. Once you get those basics, you can move mountains. In your case Eagle94, your troop has none of the three. Actually Blws problem is harder because he is in a successful program. The problem is the program vision isn't what he or his son want. A lot of folks here want to put down those adults, but really the problem is blws. Not that he can't make changes within the program, he sure can. But it will be a tough road. I like the idea of starting small. All this to say that you are going to have to learn how to be a better cat herder. You have good vision and method. Now you need to work on your sales skills so you can build the team. Get that team, and your wife will come over to your troop in a heartbeat. Barry

Great idea Matt. I always like patrols that take on an individual personality. More adventure, better cooking, better skills, camps more, or even dress a little different. Whatever they become, it sets them apart and many times admired by the other scouts, which may encourage other patrols to follow. Barry

Well this is one of the few times you and I disagree. My observation is the adults who had a scouting experience as a youth are better leaders than the adult who don't because they are just doing what they know. The adults who don't have that experience aren't lazy, they just do only what they know. That is not always the case, but in general adults have good intentions. The difference between fair programs and good programs comes down more to "passion" in my opinion. How many adults are volunteering in the BSA? How many adults are members of the forum? It's fair to say that most members of the forum have the passion. Do the main leaders of this troop have passion? My wife has passion for yard work. She loves to get her hands in soil and make things grow. I don't have that passion. My passion is riding machines that require gasoline, so I would rather mow the grass. And I do a good job mowing the grass. My planting lacks enthusiasm and it shows. As a boy run purist, I used to think just like TAHAWK about no harm programs, but I don't now. While I was a SM, my impressions of adult run programs was they do more harm than good. I gave those adults very little respect for their time. But when I was the Council Junior Leadership Development Chairman, I got to work close with older scouts (17 to 20 year olds) from the those programs and I became very impressed. I do agree with TAHAWK that the BSA does a terrible job teaching patrol method. As a Council and District volunteer spending many hours working to help units improve, I started to understand that maybe 10 percent of adults in the pool of volunteers have all the qualities required to create and manage the kind of perfect programs members of this forum keep preaching about. So, if I can still get at least 70% of those other adults to produce good scouts from a "no harm" program, I'm good with that. I can either work with them, or against them. I tried both and the program was much more productive when I worked with them. Barry

The sheep are scattered because the dog is missing. The adults are trying to work it out, but without the SM giving some direction, all the troop has is chiefs with no indians. We don't know the personalities of all the players here, but this is looking like a UC, CO, CC problem to me. I think the troop has good well intentioned adults willing to make the program go. But without a vision and plan, I can't see how it can get much better. Barry

Four of the Packs are Jansport Rainiers. The picture was taken in 1998 at about 11,000 ft in the Pecos Wilderness, New Mexico. The boys were 14 on that trek, but most of them were still using those same Rainiers on their Philmont trek three years later. They had several hundred miles on them by that time. The adult taking the picture is also wearing a Jansport Rainier. The little guy on the right is my older son who did eventually grow into the pack. He was the only person who weighed less than 100 lbs (89 lbs). He had strong legs and never once complained about carrying his share of food and gear. Barry

That is the pack we recommend for scouts in our troop. I've got two or three in my attic that have logged thousands of miles from my sons. Jansport also makes (or made) a slightly smaller model for boys less than 100lbs (older son was a 112 senior) . I didn't know Jansport still made them. The are easy to adjust for scouts as they grow, they hold a lot and they are open back panels. Great packs. When the scouts out grew them, they would sell them to new scouts for nearly nothing. Jansport used to give discounts to scouts. Things may have changed. You will love that pack. Barry