Eagledad

I read on another forum that the BSA is considering the necker as required uniform. I understand it is an attempt to be more inline with scouting programs in other nations. I don't know anything else. Barry

Imagine a coworker passing you in the hall on his way to a meeting. You also know him as a new Scoutmaster of a new troop. There is no time to chat, only enough time to say a few words in passing. The coworker says, "leaving after this meeting for my first camp out as Scoutmaster, any advice? What would you say? Do you have one quick piece of advice for a new Scoutmaster that might make a difference in helping him toward a boy run patrol method program? One sentence, no explanation, short and sweet. I'll start: "Set all camp sites at least 300 feet apart". Barry

Near the end of working an Eagle project for one of our scouts on a hot Oklahoma summer day, the scout's parents showed up to stand with him as he pulled the adults together and told us that his girlfriend was three months pregnant. He was one of those scouts that was Eagle material even as a Webelos. He had great character and was one of the older scouts that the younger scouts liked and respected. Just a great kid. His parents (dad was an Eagle) were full supporters of our troop and we all were really family. Not much was said about it at the time because we all believed he brought honor to the award. But the situation did hang over our heads. "What was the right thing here?" The scout married his long time girl friend a year later after he graduated from high school. He went to collage and came home five years later a strait "A" student with an Engineering and Business degree. He lives down the road from me and is a scout leader for one of his three kids. I ponder now and then on that hot Oklahoma day and sometime wonder what might have happened if just one of us had over reacted; sometimes the simplest plans can turn complicated by a simple act. What is right? What is fair? Life isn't so simple. Neither is scouting. Barry

I've really struggled with these questions, not so much as a scout leader, but here on the forum. As a SM, I believed that advancement is the Scouts responsibility. My responsibility for his advancement is only providing a program that gives each individual scouts the skills to reach whatever goals he sets for himself. Not goals I set, but his goals. How many times has a new scout told us his goal in the troop is earning the Eagle? And yet he doesn't have clue to how he will do that. First off I believe the Eagle goal was set in his mind by some adult because why does a boy set the Eagle goal if he really doesn't know what it is about? Second, I'm don't take the boys goals personally. I only want him to learn the life skills of setting and accomplishing those goals. As the scout experiences the scouting program, he will eventually figure out what he wants to get out of the program and he has my full support. The skills we encourage for the scouts from the day he shows up is: setting goals, making plans to reach goals, and starting the actions of those plans. We teach those skills by encouraging the scouts to do those actions with all their activities. From a new scout setting the goal to learn knots to to planning Court of Honors. The skills just turn into habits they develop in their everyday scout activities. Earning any rank is simply accomplishing a series of small goals. Same with planning the Eagle COH. It appears overwhelming at first, but when it's turned into a series of small goals, then it becomes just another troop activity. It seems like we are doing OK because when I left as SM, our troop average one Eagle every 2.5 months. And the average age of the scouts earning Eagle was 16 years old with 95 percent of our Eagle's aging out of the program. The older scouts were in no hurry to leave. But if I had to pick one indicator that our troop program was working, it would be that four of our scouts were select the OA Chapter Chief in a row. The OA adviser said that our guys had confidence in planning and running meetings. So they were the natural selection. Maybe that says more about the present OA program, but it still says a lot for the our scouts who worked hard. I don't get personally involved with our scouts goals, but I do have One extra requirement I expect from our Eagles, I expect them to act like adults. There will be no consideration for their age, maturity or experience. Only our 14 year old Eagle struggled with that, but I told them from here on for the rest of your life, just about every adult who learns that you are an Eagle will expect you to act better than the average person. So you might as well start getting treated like that now. Actually I kind of tell life scouts that too since they are so close to Eagle, but the expectation is emphasized on their Eagle conference. When I meet Eagle Scouts I don't know from other units, I treat them as adults without hesitation. It's my nature, but I did receive a compliment from a 17 year old Eagle at NYLT after the course was finished.. He said that he dreaded going back to his troop where he would be treated as a Boy Scout instead as an adult. As for meeting adult Eagles in my life. I can't say I have met one that surprised me to learn they were Eagle. And I have never met one that expected to have everything laid out for him. Maybe that is a generational thing, I don't know. Where I struggle is with adults who put expectations on Eagles that takes their choices away. "We make our Eagles do Bla, Bla, Bla, because they are Eagles. This ranges from full time patrol leaders to full time JASMs and even asking them to join a different patrol or even leave the troop all together. Oh, yes, some adults think that Eagle is kind of a graduation too. As I said, I believe scouts should be in control of their goals, and their experiences toward those goals. Once the adults tell their Eagle scouts what they have to do, they aren't being treated as self thinking decision makers anymore. They are asking the scouts to do the bidding of the adults and that is when the scouts get frustrated. My thinking is that we humans are always growing and should look for opportunities to find growth. Maybe that is leading new scouts, or maybe that is helping the ASMs plan logistics for summer camp. If we are to expect the best from all our scouts, we need to allow them to make decisions, especially the Eagles. But I understand having expectations. I started that way when I was a new scout leader. Truth is adults with expectations are better leaders because they at least have a starting place. The hope is that they grow and mature enough to not push their expectations on the scouts and instead focus on a program that helps scouts seek the best they can do for their scouting experience. It's a complicated question for me, I'm not sure why. Barry

OK, I accept that. But you classified all scouts working on palms as to not doing something worthy. You don't even have and idea why the op's son wants to earn Palms. You threw him under the bus of your opinion. What bothers me about comments like that is that it judges a scouts decision, whatever it is. Same goes with how Eagles and SPL's are disrespected here if they aren't following personal opinions of scouters on this forum. "I believe in patrol method and the Eagles in my troop will.....". My point is that we all let our Egos hold back scouts in some ways or others. I certainly don't have a defense for this SM, but that some of us don't see ourselves in the mirror sometimes bothers me. It's me, I'm getting old and cranky. My apologies to all. Barry

Yes, but your comment makes hypocrites of all of us. In another conversation today, scouters are putting down scouts who work for palms. Are those Eagles really the bad kind of scouts? Another scout leader on this forum says Eagles should only be patrol leaders, and another doesn't like SPLs, another has never met a SM he didn't like, and another has never met a Scoutmaster he did like. As much as we think ourselves as the second coming Badon Powell, it's our inability to cage our egos that turns us into close minded adults and causes these problems. All of us suffer from ego-flu now and then, we can't seem to help it. If we are lucky, we have some bit of humility hiding somewhere in the dark places of our minds to help bail us out. But that's if we are lucky. God help us, because sometimes we think we are right. If the SM of the OPs troop had to do it over again, hopefully he would choose differently. But his ego couldn't stop once he set his course and now this family will have to bypass the troop to feel they are being treated fairly. I'm most disappointed in the op's troop CC. I believe that CCs should have the strength to stand up to Scoutmasters for balance. I remember once when such a CC told me that I needed a break from the scouts at summer camp because my crankiness was not going over well. As much as I don't believe Scoutmasters should be females because boys need male role models, I also believe the best CCs are women because they don't hid what needs to be said. We have had several female CCs and they were all very good. The males we have had were not. Barry

What I mean is a "new" troop. New sponsor, new gear, NEW ADULTS. It would not be all that challenging for someone with your experience. Barry

Eagle94, I'm curious why you haven't pursued starting a new troop? I'm sure you had the thought. Barry

Personally I'm impressed Eagle because this has gone forward a long way from a couple months ago. I'm a little surprised by some of the responses on this list and can only say that they need to take a ride with their DE or District Commissioner to understand the struggles units go through to just survive. I guess we do so much bragging, lecturing and pontificating about of our idealist troop models that we camouflage the reality of building these programs. Can you imagine the dynamics involved for a group of adults with different backgrounds, experiences and goals getting together to build or even manage a scouting unit.? It takes time to build a team that not only works toward the same goals, but are also willing to humble themselves enough to step back and find a place on the team where the program goes forward. It's a battle to balance egos, will and idealisms. It's hard. Eagle94's situation is especially challenging and I commend them for any steps going forward. Well done and keep up the good work. The four stages of Tuckman's team development model are forming, storming, norming and performing. Theoretically all teams, from husband and wife teams to management teams of Fortune 500 companies go through these four stages to become efficient working together. It appears to me that Eagle94's troop is between the forming and storming part of the model. We might just be witnesses to growth of the best troop in the state. Keep up the effort Eagle, we (most of us) are with you. Barry

Oh yes, and about that patience thing; there is a reason why it is the first trait to describe "Love" in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7

I have worked oh probably about 10 troops that decided to make the same change you are making and not one of them had their older scouts (14 and older) fully sold on the idea. I guess we develop our minds believing that our program is THE program for scouting, even if we don't like it. Anyway, every troop included the older scouts into the change plan, but all of them eventually split their program where the young scouts made the troop change and the older scouts were allowed to do their thing, whatever pleased them. And I guess the joke is on them because that is kind of the patrol method anyway. NOW I'm not saying to expect doom and gloom with the older scouts, I know someone will figure out a way to get older scouts on board. I'm hoping you are that person and will teach us so that we can spread the word. Give a try for a while, but if the older scouts become a hindrance to progress, give them their program they want. Funny thing, the older scouts don't leave, they just do their thing until they age out, most earn their Eagle. Just a heads up. Not trying to suggest a course of action. Barry

Agreed, many of our scouts do both. We once had a 17 year old SPL who was part of a crew, and participated in Troop High Adventure. He couldn't get enough of this scouting stuff. By the way, you don't have to be an Eagle to give back. Barry

Adults and older scouts are the most resistant to change. Have you spoken to the adults? In general, not always, but in general change comes from the youngest to the older scouts, not the other way around. Have you developed an explanation for the reason you want to change the present program? "Because I say so" never comes off well to the scouts or adults. You should rehearse your reasoning over and over in your mind until you can say a simple one or two sentence explanation that is as coherent to the 11 year old as it is to the adult leaders. It doesn't hurt to be able to reference BSA material as well so that you don't appear as some narcissist trying to prove your new mouse trap ideas of scouting. Your troop is doing it wrong, be able to show them why. You say you have read everything, but have you read the PL and SPL handbooks? Instead of the SM trying to explain how patrols should work, let the books explain it for you with you working along with the boys as a student. As much as possible, don't push, follow along. In fact, make those handbooks required reading for all the adults working with the scouts so that everyone understands the direction YOU are going. You have our support and I'm excited to watch your troop progress. Barry

That article sure brought back memories. Lots of blood, sweat, and tears. But great memories I will always cherish. The three of us new adults starting the new troop had no problem with patrol method because we came from Greenbar Bill patrol method experiences. What threw us was New Scout Patrols. Before NSPs new scouts joined troops individually all year, not as groups of dens in January. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you find that troop schedules become wrapped around January crossovers. Before NSPs, patrols were mostly responsible for getting their new scouts up to speed with scout skills and basic camping skills. There was no set troop agenda because patrols received new scouts any time of the year. Patrols were by default responsible for their scouts growth. But once whole dens crossed over, all the patrols were forced on the same schedule. And the nature of humans naturally shifted new scout growth to the troop level just to be more efficient. Since we came from boy run troops, we were trying to achieve the same goals for our troop. And of course we tried all the BSAs recommendations along with our own experiences. We found NSPs by their nature are more adult intrusive unless the troop guides are are very mature. I have often said that we never had a TG 14 and younger that was any better than terrible. And we never had one 15 and older that was less than fantastic. But no matter how the troop guide is used, they are not natural to patrol method. We have a pretty good system now of using TGs when we have to and we mix new scouts in mixed age patrols within six months. But it took several years to figure out. Barry

I'm trying to wrap my head around stoshs leadership flow structure and I realize that, at least for me, it's not a leadership flow structure as much as it is an experience structure. Older more experienced scouts are naturally ambitious to move into positions where they can effectively "take care of their boys" from a perspective of working with Patrol Leaders. Too often rank and leadership are confused as positions of stature or authority instead of positions knowledge and maturity. When the 12 year old Patrol Leader needs advice, will he instinctively go to the 11 year old Patrol Leader, or the 16 year old SPL? And scouts don't stop "taking care of their boys" just because they aren't patrol leaders. Barry

What, new crossovers join the troop thinking that they are going to try something completely new? All election cycles are adult driven because the adults give the scouts a structure to start from. That's what what Beavah was trying to say about Stoshes first troop he Scoutmastered. Not giving a 10 year old enough structure to feel safe, much less confident in the program scares them. The problem with using obscure far fetched analogies to justify personal theories is that they distract the discussion from real ideas. There is nothing wrong with letting patrols makes the choices for selecting their leaders, but suggesting that that new ideas come natural to boys without any experience to base their choices doesn't make sense. I know of several troops where the patrols pick their leaders on their time (like Stosh suggested), but it took a lot of coaching from the SM to develop that style because it is not natural to American boys. It requires a whole different way of thinking. A lot more coaching than a SM just saying "do it by the book or every six months". Which is fine if the SM supports the style, but let's not suggest that patrols picking their leaders when ever they want is less intrusive than 6 month election cycles because once the scouts get used to a style (any style), they use it without adult interference. blw2, if the patrols picking their leaders on their time is what you want, you (the adult) will have to give them the idea, teach them how to do it, and then coach them as they try it. Then once they get it, you can sit back and relax as the perpetual machine takes over. The discussion should be more about what kind of structure gives the young scouts the most advantage for making independent choices. What can adults do to give scouts the confidence and the will to be creative and make independent choices. Face it, adults are part of the program structure. Lets not demonize them, but instead put forward experiences and ideas that give the scouts the best program. Barry

When man defines morality, the man with the biggest stick redefines morality and the poorest always suffer the most. Man has a short memory. The community changes when the governments compassion replaces Gods compassion. In the early times, if a stranger came to town down and out, the church would take them in, feed them, clothe them and find them a job. If the stranger took the food and clothes but refused work, food and clothing stopped. The church was compassionate as God demands of Christ's church, but pragmatic as well in changing mans position of taking and giving. The government (ambitious men with a self serving agenda) redefined compassion so that not only did they define compassion as taking from the haves and giving to the have nots with only the expectation of a vote. I came to really understand Gods compassion vs mans compassion when the town we were living in was struggling with teenage girls getting pregnant for government compassion. They had it down to three kids to be set for life. This wasn't a trend, it is a culture. this isn't a religious discussion, it's a pragmatic explanation of why short sighted man keeps repeating history, as this discussion points out. Barry

Teaching parents how to be observers is just part of a scouters responsibility. I imagine even Badon Powell struggled with it. Helping parents stepping back little by little to give their kids independence is one of those extra 5 minute bonuses talks I gave in my Scoutmaster Specific Class. It takes practice and some scouters are just better at theses things, but typically the sooner you talk to parents, the better the listen and accept what you are saying. Barry

I've never seen the scouts allow the crew to get spread out. I don't know, maybe it's because we are a patrol method (take care of your boys) troop. However, I have experienced scouts like Sentinel describes on many of backpacking crews. They are frustrating because just as Sentinel says, they are miserable the whole trek. I've tried everything, but once they decide they hate backpacking, there is no changing their mind. Typically they figure it out in the first couple miles too; their demeanor changes to someone you never seen before, "a big whining baby". My first experience with such a scout was a 15 year old high school soccer star. One hour on trail he was so exhausted he needed a rest every 15 minutes. I let the rest of the crew go ahead while I coached this scout to move forward with right-left-right-left, only much much slower. BUT! Once we found camp, he had so much energy that he was bouncing of trees. He loved camping and all was back to normal, or so we thought. Once he put that pack on, he reverted back to being sick and exhausted. I have experienced several of these scouts and the one thing they had in common is that they were star athletes back home. I mean athletes with scholarship prospects. My guess is that they were a bit spoiled as stars and was never pushed hard in physical demands outside their respective sport. I don't, it's just a guess. But a scout's dad was on one trek and he had had enough of his son's whining. When his 16 year old track star son decided to stop on the Philmont trail claiming he was going to die, dad let him him have it with a blecture that every member on the crew wanted to give but couldn't. It didn't change the whining sloths attitude, but it sure pumped up the rest of the crew. Normally he is a good scout, he was elected SPL six months later. Being pushed past your normal endurance separates hikers from backpackers. I did experience this same thing from an adult once. After a week of this adults child like complaining, a few scouts started to grumble about this adult once while they were cooking. His son stood up for his dad and you could see it in everybody's eyes that they felt deep empathy for their buddy. Nothing was said again, but I was angry at the adult for doing that to his son. Dad didn't get any better either. He became a SM of his younger sons troop several years later. He hated every minute. We took our shakedowns very seriously as a result these incidents. In general shackdowns help get the crews physicall and mentally prepared for the trek. However, I learned that most scouts are in good enough shape in their normal life to handle even our most physical treks. I started using shackdowns to evaluate and find the Crew members who didn't have the heart for the physical requirements of the trek, but just didn't know. If they don't have the heart and mind for it, nothing can chage it. Barry

I struggle with this too, especially with Eagles. If we were to poll all the adults on this forum of their expectations for Eagle Scouts, no two would agree. Yet, I'm sure most here do agree that the scout, not us adults, are in control of their advancement. Yet, much as many of us brag about our scouts, we aren't very loyal respecting scouts in other troops. As for scout skills, just what is so great about mastering knots in this bungee cord/Velcro culture? And a compass, I don't need no stinking compass as long as I have my Garmin. The creators of the scouting program used the skill of their time because they were a required for safety and survival in the woods. I'm old enough to admit that mastery of knots wws easy because they were used a lot for the equipment of my time. Now a scout maintains his level of skills by "teaching"? Is that really what we want? Skills are important for growth because mastering the actions for the skill give the scout mental and physical maturity. But I wonder if century old skills are holding back the program. Barry

I learned over the years that socks are the secret to foot comfort if the shoe is appropriate for the activity. I wear Smart Wool socks with thin liners on 100 degree days at summer, backpacking 10,000 feet in the Rockies, and on the Boundery Waters in Canada. The socks repell moisture and dry pretty fast. They just seem to keep the feet more comfortable even while sopping wet on long portage hikes and in the canoe. And I have never had a blister in the hundreds of hundreds of miles I portaged and backpacked. Our troop has a close toed shoe policy 100% of the time. We had a scout mess his toes up once stumbling against a small stump in camp. You only had to see the injury to understand the seriousness of the policy. Closed toed sandles are acceptable for camp shoes on backpacking and Boundary Water treks. And we found a decent quality camp sandal can be a great backup hiking shoe as well. The other adult on our Philmont crew blew out his hiking boot the 2nd day on the trail. He wore his Tevas sandles the rest of the 80 mile trek with no problems. I used to wear running type shoes at summer camp because you would think they would be more comfortable. But scouters on the forum suggested backpacking boots were more comfortable. And they are right; the support of the hiking boot is much better, which makes a big difference when standing and walking all day in 100 degree temperatures and hard packed dusty camps. I couldn't wait to get my running shoes off at the end of the day, but I can wear the hiking boots 24 hrs. Our troop uses the jungle boots stosh uses on our Boundary Waters treks because they are reasonably priced, drain well, and provide plenty of support. But my son and I decided to try the lighter Salomon Techamphibian hiking shoe because they not only drain well, they dry much quicker than the jungle boots. They are also a sturdy shoe that holds up well to heavy back pack weights. Mine are over 10 years old, have several hundred packing and canoe miles and still look almost new. Great shoes; their only disadvantage is no ankle support. I have tried close toed Keens I bought for hiking and beach wear but the toes seem to hold water and mine take days to dry out. They look stylish, but they can't compete with the Salomon in comfort, support and drainage, so they never get worn. I can't backpack anymore as a result of a recent knee injury, but if I did, I would try my Salomons Techamphibians before my Salomon backpacking boots. At least on broken in trails anyways. I like them that much. I believe footwear comfort can make or break the enjoyment of outdoor activities weather it's a hot summer day at camp or a 100 mile hiking trek. But the socks are just as important for enjoying your adventure, if not more so. Some of our cocky experienced scouts wear some pretty low quality foot gear (cheap Walmart running shoes) because they are trying to go low weight. But they never scrimp on the socks. Barry

And what if the troop doesn't have Eagles? What if the Eagle doesn't want to step up his game but the Star scout does? I guess it's me, I measure a scout by his skills, character and maturity; not rank, awards or age. The thing is while adults shouldnt do what the scouts can do, we are dangerously close to crossing the adult led line when we start assuming the scouts' dreams and ambitions. Adult leadership in a boy run program isn't for everybody. Working with each scout's growth individually requires patience, humility and thinking out of the box. Barry

That's very cool Krampus. We take a different approach in that we try to continue giving the scout challenging mature responsibilities for growth development. You're doing the same thing, but also preparing the Scouts for ASM in the future. I like that. Barry

Anybody can identify the need. Generally what happens is a situation occurs and after some discussion a JASM turns out to be the best solution at the time. Everyone from patrol leaders to adults were scratching their heads when we got 27 new crossovers all at once. I think you might be looking for a long term responsibility that can go from JASM to JASM. That isn't how we used them. It's a good idea, I just can't think where would use them in a patrol method troop. Our longest lasting JASM position was the Troop Guide helper and that only lasted two years because we tweaked the New Scout program to be manageable by the Troop Guides. Barry

I need to add that while these positions are assigned by the SM, I never did anything without the SPLs input and permission. Really these jobs came up as the both of us looked for solutions to situations. As for meeting to meeting, well look at your adults and see what they are doing from meeting to meeting. It may be almost nothing at all because their responsibility is required in other places at other times. Barry