Eagledad

Patrol Method is not the WB objective, building a working adult team that understands the BSA objectives is. Whether the adult takes WB a week before or a week after their specific training really doesn't matter much because they are still working in the dark. Ideally we would like the participant to have some experience in the position they use for planning their ticket. But when adults of all scout ages are invited, we just have to hope they stay in for the long haul. Some adults do change their minds about their future positions in the program after they are counseled in their ticket, but I still don't think specific training would have much effect with that choice. Barry

OK, I admit I haven't participated in WB for 10 years now. But Pack leaders were encouraged to participate also. Has that changed? If not, don't they suffer from the same ignorance? Barry

I'm sure you mean it was an option for that SM. It was not a National policy that I can remember. Certainly not for TF. Barry

We introduce most of our skills through program theme activities instead of MB or advancement classes. Many times the MB pamphlets are the curriculum guide, but the instruction is not intended as MB class. Not much instruction is required for a patrol to enjoy a day of canoeing on the lake. Actually swimming skills are more of a concern than perfection of the "J" stroke. For those going on a canoeing trek, they get more instruction. Same goes with knots, lashing or even first-aid. Create theme activities and let the scouts learn the skills for the theme. Interestingly we point out they can get a lot of requirements signed off if they talk to their Patrol Leader or MB Councilor, but you would be surprised how many scouts don't take advantage of that guidance. Fun was enough reward for them at that time in their life. Barry

I'm with Beav on approaching the SM. One of the considerations of just you approaching the SM or all the ASMs approaching the SM is how much influence each method has toward showing the SM the concerns. I learned as one member of our church committee that I didn't have much sway with our minister. But when the committee approached him with the same ideas, he understood better the importance of the idea to the whole group. You need to consider what is the better approach. If you decide to approach the SM as a group (I did this was a back yard barbecue), then you need to discuss a strategy among the ASMs to have mainly one person presenting the concerns with the others only shaking their heads in support. And, you all need to discuss and agree on what exactly are the concerns the group wants expressed so that debates don't start among the ASMs in front of the SM. Nothing kills a meeting like this more than everyone talking in different directions. In truth, the ASM and SM need to have these kinds of discussions often so that everyone is comfortable discussing their opinions. The SM needs to get in the habit of asking, "What do you think?" with his ASMs. From my personal experience, that takes a lot of humility. But it also forced me to have sound logical reasoning for my approach to the program. Good communication is healthy, especially in a boy run program. Barry

I understand what you are saying, I've talked to a lot of scouters on the subject. But we will just have to agree to disagree with the myth. I have too much experience with older scouts working with younger scouts to say otherwise. Of course there are times when scouts of a different maturity or interest don't want to be together in some situations, but that is different from the generalization of older scouts not wanting to be with younger scouts. And when I say the generalization (myth, theory) is the driving force for how the adults steer the troop program, I'm not necessarily suggesting intentional laziness on their part. Rather, its more of doing the best they can with what they know. I have advised several troops on this subject and they are quite frankly stumped with their older scout program when they approach me. They find that dividing the older scouts into separate adventure patrols hasn't help retain the older scouts, so they are perplexed. It really comes down to not understanding patrol method and how to apply it, or rather how to let the boys apply it. Barry

Ironically many scoutmasters use the same sort of older scouts don't like younger scouts myth to justify splitting the troop program. Of course experience proves otherwise, but such theories can make running a troop program easier for the adults. The Cub program is too long, but it's not so much the scouts who grow tired of the program, it is the adults. We like to say the program is for the boys, but a closer look will show that the most successful packs are run by adults having the most fun. If the adults are happy, their sons will be happy and they will stay in the program. However, running a program that keeps adults happy doing the same thing for five years is a challenge. Cubs is way too long. Barry

My son broke his leg a week before summer camp. The camp loaned him their golf cart and my son had a great week. Barry

Well there is a lot of darts being thrown in the dark here. Not bad advice, but it's different strokes for different programs. I'm still not sure what falling through the cracks means, but I'm curious, shouldn't the SM be catching any of this stuff with conferences? Shouldn't he have a clue when he looks through the scout's handbook? This is where the SM can learn about scouts who are shy and too immature to ask for guidance. Looking at your list hedgehog, I don't see how going to NSPs helps your Problem. It only justifies you trying to fix the problem by your assigning PORs. Not the NSPs wouldn't help, but your justification doesn't make sense to me. Scouts are responsible for the balancing the Eight Methods, not the adults. I think the trainers idea is a good approach. We sort of do the same thing, but we don't always have designated trainers. More often we have older scouts asked by the SPL to teach a skills when other scouts make a request. Sometimes the SPL will ask for a skills teaching saturday where any scout can request training for a skill. And our troop usually has a couple hours of free time on camp outs where the scouts are encouraged to ask the SPL for some skills training. Some skills like orienteering require a few hour advance notice. Now I say SPL, those are typically requested when several patrols need the same skills or the patrol doesn't have the resources. Most skills teaching eventually is done at the patrol level. The adults don't even know when it happens. Taking care of your scouts is developed in the patrol, but the habit continues at all levels. By the way, you mention the PLs being too busy to deal with advancement. From my experience, the two hardest skills to teach youth leaders are patience and delegation. I feel like your trying hard to fix one problem by hand selecting PORs. But at some point the "taking care of the scouts" has to kick in and the job gets done because someone just steps up. I kind of feel that in the big picture, your patrols haven't really bonded to the habit of taking care of each other yet. Maybe they haven't really bonded as a patrol either. If I were to guess (and it really is purely a guess on the limited information), the adults are still a little too intrusive on the patrol method. Not that some intrusion isn't necessary because boys have to be reminded now and then to take care of each other using the scout law. But eventually that practice should go into autopilot and the needs of a scout will be filled by the will of their brother scout taking care of his boys. Just as Beavera hinted, it does work that way. The scouts just need a few nudges towards the beginging to keep them on course. My first suggestion would be to give the adults and the scouts 300 feet separation during their activities and see what happens. That doesn't really require any policy or program changes and it gives the scouts a more breathing room. Then hopefully any interaction by the SM is reactionary instead of proactive. AS they say, you don't really know what you don't know. 300 feet will help both the scouts and adults learn what they don't know. Then you, the adult, can guide the scouts in how they initiate fixing their problem instead of you handing them your fixes to their problems. Of course habits take time and experience requires some tuning, but maybe it's time to let the scouts fail on their own instead of failing with the adults. As a result, the patrols may bond closer and that is a good start. Barry

I always look a the bigger picture and it seems you are looking for problem to fixed. The only struggle that really seems to stand out is in your last post mentioning "advancement". Are the new scouts not advancing? Are you trying to fix that because the PLs aren't doing a good job helping the new scouts advance? Why is there a concern on advancement? Who is complaining? Am I completely missing your concern here? Barry

I agree with the whole post, but I really like what jjlash said about the staff. Just like in a troop, the staff of a WB will take on the personality of the director. Every WB staff I participated on had a different personality and a different perspective on what the participants should get from the course. I became picky about the directors I worked under. The Troop Guides do work very hard, but most of the staff are there to support them, so it's generally a very rewarding experience. Barry

It's not easy finding the real causes for scouts dropping out. I remember when our Council made an effort to call each Webelos who dropped, sports and karate were the number one reasons. After I got finished with my research, sports wasn't even on the radar. Kids will do what is fun and rewarding no matter how busy their schedule. 2/3s of the scouts in our pack and troop are in sports, so I know that isn't a cause. Scout age boys don't like to be cold called for answers to why they quit. First off most don't really know the exact answer, they just don't want to continue scouting. Second, adults asking scouts why they don't like something is intimidating for boys this age because they think somebody is going to be in trouble. Sports, Karate, music, and etc. is easy because nobody is in trouble. Parents may not know exactly why their son doesn't like scouts, but they do know when that started happening because their son started whining about going to meetings. Parents being parents want their son to finish what they started, so they push their son to the meetings. Many scouts quit after Webelos because that is the end their parent are willing to concede. Going to a troop is like starting a whole new program and that is just the break the family is looking for to get out of scouting. The problem that for us is we really don't know when the Cub Scout started disliking scouting. It could have been at the Wolf age, but since most parents push their sons to finish what they started, or they feel the scouting is a good program for their son, they stick it out until the end of Cubs. I was surprise to learn that Bear and 1st year Webelos drop increased around 2005. The only reason I could find for that was families were frustrated with all the national gay publicity and just wanted to get away from it. But I couldn't find enough data points to verify that. And that was a national trend, it wasn't a trend locally. So it still a mystery. Finding the truth is a lot of work and most people aren't willing to put out the effort. But it does paint a picture of the problem. Scoutmasters are in the the best position to learn because they get to talk with the scouts, parents and cub leaders. They just need to learn now to ask the right questions and listen carefully to the accumulated answers. Attacking the problem is a whole different discussion. Barry

Contacting the scouts isn't enough. If you really want an true assessment, talk to the parents and leaders. That is what I did and they fill in the picture much better. Example: The Scout says that he is more interested in sports. The parent says the son felt the boring meetings were a waste of time. The Leader says she/he didn't want to be a den leader, but only took the responsibility because nobody else would. Sports? Barry

Same age patrols require as much massaging as mixed age patrols. If one were unwilling to admit that, they are only fooling themselves that it is different. My experience of mixed age patrols along with our success as adults is very successful. End of story. LOL Mixing scouting into mixed age patrols is irrelevant in the big picture of the program. The new scouts join right in and make friends immediately. In fact they make friends in mixed age patrols faster than they do in a patrol of same age strangers. The older experienced scouts know how the patrols should function and get the new scouts involved immediately. Same age patrols have to wait for the TG to get the ball rolling and even then it's not like the mixed age patrols that move on as they have been doing. It appears by how hard one has to defend same age patrols that they are a lot of work. AND THEY ARE. They require a lot of adult observation and a somewhat skilled TG. And our extensive experience in both patrols haw shown over and over that new scouts in mixed age patrols mature and grow faster from and environment of older scout role models than the same age scouts who struggle from day to day to just do boy scouting stuff. Now working at the district and council level, not all adults are adapt to running mixed age patrols. First off some adults just don't like the idea of older and younger scouts mixed. Some adults don't know how to not intrude on the patrol method and same age patrols work better for them. In most cases, Eagle mills and mega troops are aged based because they are easier for adults to manage. Pure patrol method requires giving the patrol full independence and many, if not most, adults really struggle giving boys that. As for our troop, independent growth is the most important objective in the program. Independence requires an environment of not making scouts feel guilty for being different of having different goals. That includes not having goals or not advancing or taking on leadership responsibilities. That is very hard in a same age patrol because the pressure for all scouts to grow at the same rate is very strong. A scout should develop confidence to grow and that usually comes from someone of experience that the scout respects. Our observation is that the NSP rely heavily on the TG for that respect and honor. Which is fine, but the respect of the TG who acts as the Patrol Leader is different from the respect of patrol mates who just living the normal life of a patrol mate. Of course the new scouts can be leaders too, but they don't have the experience for ideas and the confidence to work through struggles, so they usually fall back on the troop guide of adults. As a result growth in the same age patrols is slower. One keeps suggesting new scouts can move out of their same age patrol if they don't like it. But that is true of all patrols including. The difference we saw is a new scout feels too intimidated to speak up about leaving his patrol. I found it was usually the parents that came to us with relationship problems. That can happen in mixed age patrols, but it is less likely because mixed age patrols sense when part of their team isn't happy and they will accommodate whatever change is required. Scouts in same age patrols just feel stuck and frustrated until someone, usually an adult, pries and ask questions. There is that adult thing again. We have theme in our troop that says "the adults job is to put themselves out of business". We want the program to mature so that if the adults didn't show up, nothing would change in the scouts behavior. We found that maturity struggled in same age patrols because they were always looking outside of their patrol for ideas of adventure. They struggled with their own independence. Now as I said, we are very good with using mixed age patrols and we understand the dynamics of mixing boys into patrols. Some adults can build a good program around same age patrols and the boys are completely satisfied. I'm not about to go and tell adults of a same age patrol mega troop they are doing it wrong. They have literally hundreds of families that are totally satisfied with that program. But it is a different kind of program and it's not for adults who know how to be build a successful program around mixed age patrols. In the end, it is the adults who decide what is success in their program and they dictate how to point their program in a successful direction, whether that program is mixed age, same age, boy run, or patrol method. Gotta run, Barry

Qwazse, I've been an adult leader almost since the induction of women troop leaders and the program has changed a lot as a result. Any addition of female leaders will further change the program away from the boys. It WILL BE less adventure and less boy run (more adult run). I don't approve of any changes that takes quality away from my son even if it does improve for my daughter. There is a program for girls, it's time the energy for promoting girls in the BSA get turned to the swaying the Girl Scouts to improve their program. Barry

Your topic is the primary reason I don't want girls in the BSA below age 14. Your observation is more typical of of the Girl Scout program then we would like to admit. Believe it or not, one of my mentors of becoming a boy run scout leader was a women who in her life was the equivalent of a Council Executive for two councils. She became so frustrated with dealing with the very same attitudes you describe that she left the organization. She eventually got involved with Cub Scouts with her son, which is how we met. She is so adamant about women being terrible scout leaders that she wouldn't allow her son to join a troop that accepted women leaders. She believes, and I agree, that the nurturing instinct of a woman doesn't work well in a program where young boys are encouraged to learn from their independent decisions and mistakes. Protecting their youth from any kind of hurt (mistake) is part of that nurturing instinct. The goals of a boy run experience are counter to the instinctive nature of mothers. Because they don't understanding how giving youth some independence leads to grow and maturity, these leaders don't understand how teams (troops), camping, and responsiblity all work in the scouting program process to build mature decision makers. So they change and improvise the program to fit more of what they think is good for their girls. They simply don't get it, so they ignore the published program and make it up as they go along. Your daughter's leader doesnt understand the growth your daughter gained from the award, so she has no respect for the Gold Award or your daughters effort to earn it. Ask yourself, how many people outside of the organization even know what the Gold Award is. There isn't a unified acceptance in the Girl Scouts organization for what a girl gains from the Gold Award. Not like the Eagle. To be fair, we have a couple of posters here on the forum who believe the are the 2nd coming Badon Powell and dis everyone else's opinions. But the BSA community as a whole believes in the program and holds these leaders in check. The Girls Scouts don't have that community, so each Troop leader does what they want. My wife quit the Girls Scouts after three years. The frustration wasn't worth it. Accepting young girls in the BSA would also bring more female leaders with the same nurturing instinct and I personally believe that would eventually pull more adventure and independence away from the boys program at an age when they grow the most from those experience. We have already seen some of that after the BSA started accepting female Boy Scout leaders. The good that comes from this experience is your daughter will grow to appreciate you for the support you have given and are continually giving her during this frustrating process. I'm at the age that I know she will hand those same gifts to her children. Barry

That is not typical of packs nationally unless things have changed in the last few years. but even the male leaders who like to camp burn out. I've seen it a lot. Still guys, marketing is not really the issue on this problem, trust me. Go out and find out for yourself by interviewing Den leaders like I did. Interview the Webelos and you will find that if the Den leader is running a fun program where the boys look forward to each meeting, they will likely crossover. In fact I found even if the den program is basically arts and crafts, but the leader still makes the meetings fun, they scouts will crossover because they believe the troop will be as fun as the den. If the meetings are boring, the scouts presume that is how the troop program will be as well and they look for a chance to break from the program. Crossover is that easy break. The local fix is to find the burned out leaders and help them out. Not as easy as it sounds. Barry

We've had this same discussion many times over the years. 45 to 50 percent is the typical average for crossovers nation wide. In short, adult burnout is the cause. A volunteer run program can hope for at best two years from their average volunteers. After two years, the volunteers are burning out. The Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. Yep, raising my voice there. Even if a parent wasn't a leader during the Tiger year, they still are two years in before they reach Webelos. Adding to the problem is that the average Cub leader is a mother who doesn't camp outdoors or understand Boy Scout Skills. Either the Bear leader reluctantly takes on the more outdoor style Webelos, or she quits and the pack finds a reluctant replacement. Either way the boys have an unmotivated leader for two more years. I did a lot of research in this and I'm guessing that between 65 to 75 percent of non crossovers came from a Dens with unmotivated burned out leaders. The numbers can be improved, but the real problem is the five year Cub program. This is why I believe the Tiger program needs to be moved or merged into a pre-Pack age Scout program. Four years is still too long, but it's a start. Barry

Thanks TAHAWK, That is very good. Barry

Exactly! Three scouts have giving me the credit for them becoming engineers. I wanted to ask them what they saw in me that motivated them to make that choice, but just asking the question seemed self serving. I honestly can't say where I influenced these scouts, and sometimes it scares to think of how much influence we have on boys. Good and bad, our every action is watched. Barry

For me it's plumbing. My kids know this well and speak of it to my embarrassment. Barry

When a scout didn't get the position he wanted, that experienced was coached as another opportunity to develop respect and growth by taking on other responsibilities. This happens often with young ambitious scouts wanting to try their hand at leadership in a mature patrol. Some scouts take it hard. But like qwazse, they are guided to show their ambition by taking on responsibilities that give them experience and exposure. Many of these scouts grow more from those tasks than from their POR positions. Barry

Adults set the example. What ever excuse you allow yourself, the scouts will use themselves. Not just with swearing, but everything. I asked the adults to never yell for any reason beyond warning someone of some danger. It wasn't long before our scouts also used a quiet tone during the business of taking care of their scouts. There is one place I would turn my back on scouts swearing; high adventure camp sites are typically very tight, so tents are set up very close. Provided they are keeping their voices low, I let them have their privacy. Barry

The NSP option failed because it didn't fit in Hedgehog's Troop design. They simply didn't need the NSP to indoctrinate new scouts into their troop. Trying something new is a normal process of working toward a better program, as is dropping the parts that drag the program down. Loosing 1 scout for every six shows their success without the NSP. They might change their new scouts policy for those years when 25 new scouts join at the same time. Barry

Off hand, I can think of a half dozen troops that grew faster than your troop. Is that really a good measure of a boy run program? And as for what your scouts want and don't want in their program, Scoutmasters' set the tone of how their program takes direction. You said it yourself, you told your scouts how they are to select their leaders. Is that Forced? Maybe, but I have never seen scouts drive their program from ignorance. Barry