Eagledad

The PLC in each troop models the SM vision of responsibility and leadership. And no two PLCs are a like. I'm not sure Bill could have written are more detailed recipe of success because it would have pushed many Scoutmasters beyond their ability to advance boy growth. Stosh has said many hundreds of times he does not respect the SPL because the PL should be recognized with the highest responsibility for the program. He also admits being forced to use an SPL when his first troop briefly grew too large for the PLs to manage. Maybe his question is more for himself to find solitude in his struggle to define the role of the SPL. I have suggested several times that the SPL responsibilities should be an opportunity for growth. Stosh can freely apply any growth he wants, but instead of trying to redefine the SPL for the scouters on the forum who use the SPL, further experiences with his own SPL might enlighten his vision. Barry

We solve this situation by encouraging scouts of different faiths to lead a service so the troop could observe different faith worships. It was an opportunity for growth. Our services are mostly canned, so most songs are faith neutral and the sermon is usually focused on the Oath and Law. So really the prayer is the only part of the service that has much of a faith based tone. Because the different different services seemed pretty much the same, dominating faith concerns quickly became a nonissue. Barry

How do you prep for the unknown? What ambush? Has one of your scouts failed an EBOR? You may have a good reason to prep for a specific situation, but as I said, I think the message to all scouter is that a quality program is the preparation for evaluating a scout's progress in the program. And politics? If nobody expresses concern about improper behavior at any level, how can it ever get changed? I always saw results by the Council and District when I submitted concerns. Barry

Even adults need to prepare for interviews and reviews in their lifetime. I'm not condemning prepping, but I do believe there is way to much focus in this discussion on prepping scouts to protect them. Of course there are a few bad examples of adults out of line, but they aren't the norm. The message in this discussion should be that the troop program should be sufficient preparation for an EBOR. How does the SM know if the program is sufficient? By the comments of scouts in the other rank BORs. Barry

Of course there is no room for absurd adult volunteerism, but if the Troop adults think of their Eagles as children, they will treat them as children. Think about that for a moment; Eagles are envisioned by the general public as the best and brightest scouts. The cream of the crop, the most skilled and best of character. If the adult leaders still think of these young men as children, shouldn't we call that helicopter scout leading? Barry

Well that's good, a lot of families left because of this non-issue. Barry

LOL My wife correlates going slow with being safer. And I can't change her. Probably the best car drivers are also motorcycle riders because they learn to be defensive in traffic, or die. Defensive driving isn't about speed, defensive driving is knowing the traffic around you and putting yourself in the least disruptive position. Pilots call it situational awareness. While situational awareness is an action, it is a servant action. Ironically for this forum, another appropriate term for situational awareness would be "taking care of the drivers around you". Barry

Since I'm not presently involved, I don't know if the program is stabilizing, stalling, thriving or whatever. What I do see is that the Boy Scouting is not on the front page of the news and discussed in the context of a political talking point. The decision to accept gay boys has for the moment calmed the activism against the movement. It's nice to have a discussions more about the boys. Barry

For many troops, the SPL is busy because he attends all the meetings and responsibilities for the unit leaders. In most summer camps, camp policies and information for the patrols are given to the unit leaders to pass down to their scouts. The SPL is that unit leader in some troops. Barry

I don't understand the strangers thing. We had introverted and learning disabled scouts who were extremely shy and they had no trouble approaching their Eagle BOR. A typical troop program doesn't work in a vacuum. Unless the Scoutmaster shelters them from strangers, Scouts have to work and deal with many strangers during their scouting activities, including the troop BORs. If anything, scouting is the best place for boys to develop confidence in conferring with strangers. Our new scouts are taught quickly how to call and discuss business with merit badge counselors. Patrol leaders and PLC members have call and work with strangers in planning activities and arranging program activities. EBOR members are the least of a scouts concerns. A shy scout in a normal troop develops the confidence and good manners to work with strangers. In my opinion, Eagle Scouts should have an adult maturity. We wouldn't question how our ASMs and Committee members deal with strangers, why would we be concerned about Eagle Scouts? A SM afraid of the EBOR needs to rethink how the troop program develop's their scouts into leaders of integrity and Citizens of Character. Barry

For the folks here who are fairly new to the scouting program, the best way to insure a scout gets his Eagle is to provide him a quality program and environment where he has opportunity to practice his skills and knowledge of the BSA program. A Scoutmaster cannot run a program by their fear of an EBOR. Sadly a few bad apples bring out stories that we hear on a forum and give the appearance of EBORs as controlling self serving adults looking to filter out scouts who appear weak. Truth is that the vast majority of Scouters join boards to meet these special scouts and to honor them. I have Scoutmastered dozens of scouts who became Eagles and I have no such horror story of EBORs. If something like that happen, I would be on top of the district immediately demanding change. I would not allow some adult force me into a position to where I have to compromise myself into coaching special instructions to get around the system. Nothing about that scenario models the law and oath. For me coaching a scout to pass an EBOR has the appearance of protecting my Ego and takes away the honor of his hard work to earn the award. I will not stand to be forced into that position. However, If an adult outside our troop interferes with the intended process of the program, I take action with the adult, not the scout or the troop program. And it does work. It wouldn't be the first time I forced a change at district or council because of bad acting. Scoutmasters need to focus on providing a quality program that isn't based on their fear of adults outside of their unit. Barry

For Petes sake, if the adults act afraid of the EBOR, the scouts are certainly going to be afraid. Some of you adults preach treating your scouts like adults, tricks and cheats doesn't sound adult to me. What bothers me is some of these adults here whining about EBORs are the same adults whining about pencil whipped Eagles. It is said that our kids are a reflection of their parents. Are Eagles a reflection of their Scoutmasters? Barry

We are very boy run, but summer camp is always a good realignment for us because it's seven days of intense boy run. We usually get two campsites, one for the boys and the other for the adults. The SPL goes to all the unit leaders meetings and works the patrols with the camp leadership. He works so hard that he has little or no time for his own activities. Because of that, our troop has a tradition of paying for the SPLs camp fees. Barry

Yep, that is uncalled for. Thanks Barry

I don't doubt your troop is justified in helping the scouts, but can you describe to me what the EBOR did to make the scout's feel ambushed? I am (warning for moderators) ignorant of such experiences. And, what is 'gotcha' star chambers? Is that some video game? Boy I feel old. Barry

As I said, our Eagle candidates typically have the maturity to handle themselves with respect and dignity in a EBOR. Prepping our scouts would be like prepping a 45 year old ASM. Our district, as far as I know, has never caused any drama on their part. And around here, asking the SM to sit in the scout's EBOR is more a formality of tradition to show honor and respect to the leader of the program where the scout developed his Eagle qualities. Our scouts personally handle their Eagle paperwork and arrange their EBOR themselves and have to invite the SM to his EBOR. If the scout chooses to not invite the SM to his EBOR, the SM might not even know the Scout's EBOR took place until Council announced the Scout is officially an Eagle. That's never happened, but it shows how much responsibility the scout has in the process compared to the adult leaders. Until this discussion, I have never heard of troops sending the SM to EBORs to protect their scout.. So I'm curious to learn of the experiences that would cause concern for your scout at the EBOR. What does "EBOR is out of place" mean? Barry

That's a pretty good idea. Barry

We had several scouts close to Eagle transfer into the troop. All great scouts, but I learned to sit down and talk about expectations because scouts come from a different Troop, District, and Council cultures that did the Eagle process differently. Once everyone gets that all straitened out, it's not big deal. Barry

I do understand the reassurance part. But it is funny, I find the source of doubt in most cases to come from the parents. When a scout asked me for the Eagle Scoutmaster Conference, I always asked the scout to invite his parents if he doesn't mind. About 50% of the parents accept the invite, and it was usually those parents that had some concern about the EBOR. So I usually addressed the few example questions more for the parents benefit so that they could feel relaxed and allow their son to feel relaxed. But again, since we assume the scout is ready, our demeanor also reflects our confidence in him. Barry

Opportunity? What does a scout in your troop learn during your practice EBOR that he doesn't already know? I don't get it, but one thing I've learned on this forum lately is that troops have a culture of expectation and each troop is different. Our culture expects a scout to act with a minimum maturity the represents his rank. A life scout is expected to act with the same maturity of the adults in the troop. And they are held accountable when they don't live up to that expectation. That maturity includes the scout taking personal responsibility for his knowledge of skills and his character. I guess we just wouldn't see a point to a practice EBOR when our scouts are at their best. This is not to say our scouts are exceptional, I don't mean that at all. What I mean is we expect scouts going in an EBOR to already be ready by the fact they have reached that point in the program. What more does a Life Scout need to learn that he hasn't already learned and experienced? Seems like the troop is taking the scout's personal business a little too personally. Barry

Hmm, this is interesting. I've never heard of practice EBORs. Maybe our EBORs (done by District) are easy, or our scouts are just above average, but the BORs not challenging. I spent a little time explaining the EBOR format during my SM Conference with the scout by giving few general examples, but that was more to show him that nothing will be asked he doesn't know. Practice EBORs? What does your EBORs ask that typical Life scouts don't already know? Barry

I agree there should be more than IOLS for teaching the fundamentals, but when a focus is put on adults mimicking aspects of the program like patrol method, history has proven those adults go back to their units and force the boys to mimic their experience. Their personal ambitions get in the way of understanding scouts learning from THEIR choices. You wouldn't think that would be the way, but the adults use their one experience to run their troop everyday. But boys do patrol method different because there is a world of difference in their maturity from the adults. The adults get frustrated because the scouts aren't doing it like their WB experience, so they intervene to set the boys strait. This is why National killed the old course. From my experience of creating and directing a council level patrol method youth leadership course, I found teaching the ideals of patrol method was challenging for both the boys and adults. In my opinion, the best way to teach patrol method to the adults is have them observe a youth leadership patrol method course. Then they can see the dynamics of the boys in action without their personal biases or ambitions getting in the way. If they don't have any investment in the boys performance, they are more likely to see the bigger picture. Barry

One who has not participated in a course should not make comments in ignorance. The objective of building a functional team and program around goals are skills all adults leaders need to learn and practice. The course gets more specific to each participant responsibilities by directing them to design their Ticket Items to their individuals leadership responsibilities. The course curriculum and the objectives of the course were completely change from the old course, so how is that dumbing down? WB is not a scouts skills development course, it never has been. But course directors who didn't understand the purpose of the course tried to make it a skills course and forced National to start all over again. As for the patrol method part of the discussion, I would not use WB as a platform to teach patrol method. At best it's just a hint of patrol method. Barry

Well I don't know how WB should be classified, but I think the curriculum is one of the more important adult curriculums for providing a successful program. Its realistic to assume that at least 75% of adults joining today don't have any scouting experience. As a result the adults don't understand the goals of program, nor do they understand how the many parts play together for the big picture goal. I know this because I used to counsel struggling units. And typically the problems started with not understanding how each adults roll fit in their team, and not having any goals to point them in a general direction. I was teaching those WB basics years before they were introduced in the new WB syllabus. I Understand the importance of knowing the scout skills so that we can teach them. But, the BSA learned that even when units know the skills, the program can still go off in the weeds if the adults don't work well as a team or know how all the parts in their program work together toward a bigger purpose. In fact, WB was changed because the old course was found tobe contributing to units going off in the weeds. Maybe the problem is that this course shouldn't be called WB. WB originated for showing "experienced" Scoutmasters advanced teaching skills. It was never intended to teach basic scout skills or even the patrol method. Maybe what needs to be done is rename the course and retire the Woodbadge title all together. Barry

I think the main difference is that the rowboat is heavier and requires a little more muscle to go the same distance. I took the rowboat MB my first summer camp and canoeing the next year. The rowing MB was more fun for me. Barry