Eagledad

With 90 scouts or more, over 45 percent of them were 14 and older when I was the SM. And most of them went to summer camp until they aged out. Most of our Eagles didn't have a EBOR until they we 16 or 17. My best SPL was also very active in the school band. If the program is worth it, scouts will make it work. This is why I disagree with theories about older scouts being too busy, don't want to baby sit, or need more adventure. Older scouts want to be challenge physically and mentally for their level of maturity. It's that simple and that complicated at the same time. It's a challenge for most adults to know how much is enough for developing scout growth. All of us are challenged to understand the needs of young adults. So let's not call ourselves the enemy. We adults are simply students learning how to be better scouters. If we adults fail anywhere, it's that we are too lazy or too prideful in wanting to make the effort to grow ourselves. I have never met a good scout leader right out of the box. But I have met a few who were willing to learn. Our culture holds parents from treating young adults as adults. To do so is working against the trend. But for those bold enough, the rewards are great. Barry

From my experience, one needs to have some experience with older scouts before theorizing how adults should work with them. It's usually adults of weak units that theorize that older scouts babysit younger scouts. That says a lot more about the adults than the scouts. in most cases it means the troop program hasn't matured beyond a First Class advancment program. It's usually adults that assume older scouts need more adventure to enjoy scouting. But let's think about this for a moment, if the troop is providing adventure for all the scouts, certainly the older scouts are getting their fair share of fun as well. So does pushing the older scout toward more adventure make sense? When adults don't understand why older scouts are not excited with the troop program, they seem to automatically theorize the older scouts aren't getting enough adventure. In reality, successful troops with a successful older scout program simply respects their older scouts as adults. They don't send them away to more adventure, they encourage the older scouts to be creative in running their program. Barry

Troops allowing a Tenderfoot sign off an Eagle's leadership requirement is about as likely as stosh listening to a Tiger Den Leader lecture him on patrol method. *I'm thinking the biggest argument for all these frivolous rules is because the adults want to retain control, especially in the later ranks* No, not at all. It's not about control, it's about trusting boys to make mature decisions. If an adult hasn't experienced boys making mature decisions, they struggle to envision it and accept the idea until they experience it personally. It's a parents instinct to protect the child from suffering. So, inexperienced adults (parents) raise barriers of their fears. The barriers can be eased or removed by the adults simply by the action of teaching the scouts how to work around the cause of their fears. The adults feel better for guiding the scouts toward more maturity. But in reality, the adults just basically fooled themselves into giving the scouts the freedom by simply by giving them a safe process. Most adults admit later that they were over reacting to their fear, but it takes the time for them to experience scouts making decisions to ease their fear enough to give the scouts more room to make choices. That is what I meant by compromise Eagle94. You could create a class that teaches the basics of singing off requirements. Scouts who attend the class are signed off (LOL) to sign off other scouts advancement. You appear to be giving the scouts more maturity. In reality, you are creating some time for the adults to expeirience scouts making mature choices. Once you open that door, I promise time will open it up more. Barry

It appears to me Eagle94 that you are constantly fighting brush fires while ignoring the source of the ambers. I'm a big picture person, so bare with me. Scouts in most troops are responsible for signing off advancement because that action is part of giving scouts practice in making choices with consequences or outcomes that effects the lives of others. The mission of the BSA is to develop boys into men who make moral and ethical decisions. The Scout Oath commands the scout to do his best in the duty of helping other people at all times. The Troop boy run program is purposely designed to encourage scouts to make choices and decisions that usually have consequences with other people. Making those choices gives them practice to measure how their choice are affected by the Scout Law. It's right there in both the Vision and Mission Statements. In this case, the scout is accepting responsibility for another scout's level of skill. It appears to be a small thing, but it can have big negative consequences if the troop overall starts to decline in scouts skills. The skills of the troop as a whole is a reflection of choices made by scouts. If adults continue to make these decisions for the scouts, they will never have opportunities to learn from their decisions and fail in the mission of developing ethical and moral decision makers. As you know, signing off advancement is a small action of a boy run program, but it is indicative of the adults willingness to encourage the scouts to grow toward the BSA Mission. As I said before, the skills that boys develop in the scouting program are only limited by the fears of adults. The adults, not the scouts have to learn how to not let their fears get in the way. I teach that a lot. You may very well have to discuss each individual argument to find a compromise, but if you don't start off with the BSA Ideals for the Scouts, the adults are just going to stand on their own ideals. The Ideals of the BSA Mission and Vision trump each of their ideals. Their pride may very well argue against you, but you stand on the principles of the BSA. They are being selfish, you are representing the program as it was intended 110 years ago. I hope that makes sense. You will of course have to think of this in your own words. All I'm saying is start with the big picture. Barry

Scouts can only grow within the boundaries of the adults limitations. Who knows what the scouts can do until the boundaries are removed. Remove the boundaries by taking the adults out of the process. Barry

Sound like a fun idea. Barry

You provoked a few thoughts: *I was given the go-ahead by Council to develop "my" vision of a boy run NYLT (JLTC at the time). I had full support by the council, but I remember one SM who gave me his full support and cooperation, changed his mind when he saw that the participants were given their own campsite without staff or adults to monitor their behavior. As much as we talked about the goal of giving scouts the freedom to create their own patrols and course agenda, he just couldn't find the trust to let scouts camp by themselves in a course environment at the local Scout camp. The youngest participant was 14, and he still couldn't see them as adults. *More than 75% of today's troop volunteers never had a Boy Scouting experience. And most of them have never camped. * I used to poll scout leaders at leadership training courses and I found that less than 10% of trained ASMs had read more than 10% of the Scoutmaster Handbook. Less than 25% of trained Scoutmasters had read 25% of the Scoutmaster Handbook, and less than 10% of SMs had read the whole handbook. It's one thing to talk about developing character, knowing how is something different. The BSA has some challenges for getting parents up to speed as developers of patrol method programs. Barry

We had a scout who is best described as a nerd. He hated scouting and the outdoors so much that he ran away from a camp out one night. About that same time, troop internet sites were becoming coming popular. It was a shot in the dark, but nothing else interested the scout in the troop, so we asked if he would like to give the Troop Web Site developer a chance. He was Eagle 3 years later. You just never know. Barry

Our youth live in a challenging culture. Their bodies and minds turn into adults by the age 14, but our society doesn't allow them to behave any differently than 12. Even our laws restrict our young adults from behaving like young to 18 for voting and 21 for drinking. The restrictions are to protect the society from immature adults making important decisions that can have direct effects on other people and communities. But in the same manner, it also builds a belief that 15, 16, 17 year old teens are still children, not adults. the problem feeds on itself because as the community treats young adults as children, they don't mature as adults and take that learning experience into their parenting. The average maturity for tens is forced lower with each generation. I believe this is where our generation of helicopter adults have come from. they were treated like children in their later teen years, they don't understand any differently for their own teens. The scouting is an intimidating program for today's parents because it pushes their comfort out of bounds for the safety of their children. They don't understand how making choices develops maturity, at least for youth of the scouting age. They question the age of a youth making choices that effect the lives of other people. Making those kinds of decision is for adults, not children; that's the way they were taught. Scouting is an in-your-face program that is unbelievable for most parents. Just like the "ages and stages" examples that scouting and my Child Psychologist friend talk about, most parents find it hard to believe. Parent want more proof and would rather not risk their sons getting hurt than to try this idea of scouts learning from their mistakes. Parents believe they are protecting their children from the pain of wrong choices, but I learned they are also protecting themselves of the pain of watching their children struggle. I learned this, and felt it actually, as I saw the strain of parents letting their sons go on their first weekend campout, or their first week long summer camp. Our troop developed ways over the years to prepare the parents for summer camp and we had a lot less homesick scouts. It's the parents that make a scout miss home, not the scout so much. I got my first job when I was 12. Saved enough money to by my first car when I got my license at 16. My kids are still amazed that I payed my way through college. But they live in a different world. Just as I lived in a different world from my parents who were scouts during WWII. I was a driven boy run patrol method idealist as a Scoutmaster, As a result of our boy run program, our popularity grew through the council. Who would have thought that a program that was normal for most scouts in the 70s would be considered extreme in the 90s. But when I retired as the SM and took on responsibilities at the District and Council level, I became humbled that I couldn't change all the other troops into my level of boy run of our troop because the adults (parents) struggled with my vision. So I learned how to teach the vision of changing boys into citizens of character and leaders of integrity. But it is a tough road. Parent of this generation aren't evil or wrong minded, they are just being the best parents they can from the knowledge and experiences given to them from their own parents. They are being responsible, caring, loving parents who only want the best for their children. Who is to say that Eagledad, Beaver, or Eagle94 really know what they are talking about. Scouting to most parents is camping, not character building. So what is the big deal if the Scoutmaster directs scouts in their everyday activities? Is it so hard to understand that parents look at scouting as more of an after school program? Hey, as I said, how many of you really believe in the ages and stages examples. Your skeptical and really you are not sure how to apply ages and stages even if it might be true. Well it's twice as hard for those parents who don't understand anything about the scouting program. Troops that are the most boy run are the ones that "believe" in the heart of the program. They understand how the Oath and Law make a difference in a scouts growth. I found that most Scoutmasters of the hard core boy run patrol method troops have studied Badon Powell, Bill Hillcourt and other founders. They have some understanding of GreenBar Bill Patrol Method and Badon Powell Scouts. They researched the founders to understand better how scouting works in a boys life. Most want to shuck past the husk of new scouts, BORs, rank requirements, and advancement to find the core of developing growth of character and integrity. These adults don't use boy run and patrol method because the book says so, they use it because it is the most efficient means to an end. They get it. They can define how almost every part of the troop program contributes growth in a boys' character, fitness and community activeness. And honestly boy run is a lot harder because it requires guiding each scout individually instead of by group. Boy run scout leaders are rare and as a result they are under constant assault of their the program and must constantly defend the Vision, Aims, and Methods. It wears on them, but they stick with it because they have the passion to seek a better future for their scouts. If you want what a boy run program gives to scouts, then you must be passionate and proactive because the culture has become a heavy force against youth programs that allow their youth participants the freedom to make mistakes from their personal choices. I believe that true boy run leaders today need to study harder and learn how the pieces and parts of the scout program contribute to the growth of making moral decisions based from the Oath and Law because there are fewer scout leaders who even know. I believe a true boy run adult leader today has to be courageous because they have to learn how to get past their own personal fears that block a boy run program from working. They have to believe in the product enough to let failure become positive lesson for wisdom and change. Boy run adults have to get past their egos so that they are willingly humble in front of the scouts because sometimes the scouts are right and the adults are wrong. Real boy run scouting is hard today. Even harder than 20 years ago when I was a SM. It takes a special person to support and develop a boy run program. The rewards are beyond description, but the first step requires a faith that most adults aren't willing to give. For most adults, the question is how much are they willing to compromise to make life easier for them as an adult leader in a troop program? All I can say is there are a few of us that will support every effort you all make toward your program. So of us will be judgemental, some of us will empathize. But we are here and hopefully make your adventure in scouting a little easier. You are heros to me because you are contributing into making my son into more of a man than without you. That is why I love this scouting stuff. Barry

blw2, the behavior of older scouts start from what they know. The instinct is there, but knowledge is only what they observed in their past. Desire without knowledge is like running fast in the dark. The behaviors I wrote in my above post were taught to me by a good friend who is a professor in Child Psychology and a Scoutmaster. Over time I observed his teaching many hundreds of times. Older scouts behave exactly as the role models they watched the three or so years before puberty. I've said many times that the quality of a troop should be measured by the older scouts. What is observed in the older scouts is what will be observed from the scouts following them. If that is not desired, change it. We have so much power as troop leaders to build men of character and citizens of integrity if we only use that power correctly. Barry

I've also seen troops the way Stosh describes, but only in adult guided troops. And not that that is a good or bad thing, without older scouts, adults have limited options for developing growth. But adults who ignore ages and stages tend to struggle more with older scouts because they dont understand the power of human instinct. They tend to either push mature responsibilities on inmatures scouts who really aren't are ready for that much of a jump, or do all the responsible roles for the scouts. Natural instinct pushes prepubescent boys to hang in groups where they are safe from outside danger. Standing out is not instinctive unless they feel safe. And a boy run program isn't inherently safe in that context. Which is why the BSA looses more scouts during their first six months in the troop than any other time. Boys of this age instinctively make decisions based on their personal position (survival) in the situation of the moment. Its frustrating for some adults that young boys appear so selfish in their behavior, but it's just nature. Guidance through respected role models encourages real growth much faster than immediate correction motivated from impatience. The natural behavior of post puberty scouts is the opposite. Instincts drives them to step out of the herd or group and make individual decisions for the good of the group or herd. Imagine all those nature shows where the dominant males watch over the herd. The importance of the scout program is for younger scouts to learn the habits of post puberty behavior by watching the behavior of mature role models. Ideally we want young scouts to be immersed in the servant lifestyle based from the scout law and oath. It's amazing to watch, but once a scout reaches the age of maturity, he instinctively acts with a servant heart. And you find yourself in amazement that the program really does work. Barry

Exactly! Even on this forum we experts have different opinions on boy run, patrol method, NSPs, mixed age, same age, leader styles, elections, and on and on. As Hegdgehog said, open end question are best because the answers will describe the program. But even then the listener has to know something about the program. Our PLC meets every week without any adults. Many PLCs meet once a month with adults. Either method is acceptable depending on expectations and how the meeting led. Even more important is why troops use the methods and styles they use. Can the adults explain them any other way than "it's the way scouting has always done it." And quite frankly many families like the kind of programs some of us detest. I found leaving my biases out of the mix very challenging when our district was developing the program for helping Webelos families find the right troop. The internet can also be an excellent source for guidance depending on the sites; I used to refer Webelos leaders to this forum for learning more about troop programs, but not anymore. The "my way or the highway" tone here drives unexperienced newcomers away. It's better to find opportunities to educate them in district activities. Barry

No, it was not that at all. Shesh. Barry

I took the OPs question to be idealistic, so I haven't participated. Is eight a good starting place? Sure, why not. But as Beaverah points out, eight is just a starting place. But our troop has a reputation of being friendly toward sports and other big activities like band, so we typically experience a 25-35 percent reduction of attendance, depending on the season of sports. I confirmed that figure during January and summer when participation is highest because there is relatively no sports pulling scouts away at the time. In that culture, our scouts plan a head for the activities and experience in the troop. A football player plans to run for PL in the January. We had one scout plan his calendar to run for SPL a head 18 months to fit around his swimming team schedule. We see many players show up late friday night or early saturday after the their game. We adults figure that the troop can either fight for time in a boys busy schedule, or join them and welcome them when they can. We typically have 95% of scouts go to summer camp, which is an incredible number when you consider 45 percent of the troop is 14 and older. The patrol sizes bounce between 6 to 12 scouts. Ideal? I don't know, we adults honestly don't get involved unless we see some dramatic loss of growth. I'm sure their is some struggle, but with mixed age patrols, the maturity of the older scouts balances a lot of those struggles. As I said, 8 scouts is idealistic. Real life finds balance through experience. I think the question is where do we adults fit in that circle of life? Barry

The task of marketing a troop is challenging because the information given really depends on the audience. Parents don't really know what to look other than they want someone they can trust to leave their kids with for a week. Scouts want adventure, but what is that really. I asked all our Webelos one year a few moments they were about to crossover to their troop why they picked this troop over three others, they said this troop had the best game at the troop meeting. I am not a fan of leaving the decision up to the boys because they simply don't know either. Picking a troop should be a family decision or even a team decision with the Den Leader included with the family. As a result of my pack and troop experiences, our district developed opportunities for Webelos Den leaders to learn about troops, troop programs, differences patrol styles and patrol methods. We created some informal gatherings where Den Leaders and troop leaders could meet and talk. Most folks don't realize that 70% of Webelos leaders don't know single troop leader by name. It really is hard for them to visit troops because they don't know who to call, what to look for and what to say. The troops way a head are the ones with Den Chiefs. But even those den leaders still needs some coaching on the troop program. The first best step we learned from a district point of view is just a simple coffee and cookies meeting with Webelos Den leaders and Troop Leaders. Of course scouts are welcome, but really the goal is simply help the den leader get comfortable to just call for setting up a visit. One face to face meeting makes all the difference in the world. Barry

What do you want each scout to take with them from the program when they leave the troop? How often does the PLC meet? Who attends the PLC meeting? How are youth leaders selected? How often? How are patrols created and maintained? Describe the New Scout Program? How many scouts of each age? These are usually good discussion starters for learning about the program. Barry

That's how we do it. The first action of each new PLC is to review the already planned next six months and plan new activities for the following six months. That is how we get a committed annual calendar every six months. Annual calendar events are written in stone, so all other activities are planned around them. It makes it much easier for the patrols to plan their own calendar. Barry

We do this all the time. We find adults standing around and do a BOR. I guess that is why I don't understand Scoutmasters being concerned with strangers on EBORs. Our scouts likely sat with several strangers on all their BORs. Barry

The troop today is still using the design we created in 1995. We used a high quality cotton and I know that our shirts where cheaper than the BSA. I still wear my shirt now in then. That being said, we gave discounts to families with more than one boy, or anyone really who seem to struggle with the cost. The T-shirts weren't required uniforming, but most of the boys wanted one for showing pride of being the troop. Barry

Even if the non-Christian families don't have a problem? I approached our Jewish family on the subject once and the father interrupted me to say they don't have a problem with the troop services. His tone emphasized that they would rather us not change any part of the program for their family. Their sons (4 of them) are mature enough to participate without feeling as outsiders. I don't know why the tone, maybe they get more special treatment than they want. Barry

I also agree with Beaver about controlling distractions. We require all vehicle with more than four scouts include another adult who can deal with the distractions (scouts) while the driver stays focused on the road. For long trips, we always plan stops every two hours give everyone a break and to switch drivers. I'm not a fan of caravanning for some of the obvious reasons, but we do like at least two or three cars to travel within sight of each other in case a driver has mechanical problems or become ill. Barry

Ever since we converted to a backpacking troop, the only time are trailer is more than a 3rd full is traveling to summer camp. Even then it is mostly personal gear. Not only do we use only drivers with experience in towing trailers, our Quartermasters are trained as well in proper weight distribution and packing of the contents in the trailer, and hitching the trailer to the towing vehicle. The troop does not let the trailer leave the parking lot without the QM or someone trained by the QM because he has the keys and knowledge of proper use. Barry

Disagree? Hmmm, do I disagree? My point all along in the other discussion has been the program is quite capable of getting a scout prepared for the EBOR. Ok fine, some units have to deal with hostile boards, I understand that. Still, the message for scouters watching the forum for ideas needs to be that the program works and dealing with the un ordinary situation requires an unusual approach. To often we are driving topics to solutions that aren't necessarily practical in normal situations. But there are some adults who in one discussion brag about their personal hands on approach with scouts, and preach complete hands off in a another discussion. When the tone of the forum goes that direction, it looses integrity and those adults needing help move on. I love the ice cream analogy. It's clear and to the point and I'm sure it will be used long into the future by the few who read this forum. But it risk getting lost in the tall grass when the discussion gets in the details of defining responsibility and the adults role in the process. I would love a discussion of contributions that leads to simple applications that clarify how to use the ice cream cone analogy. But we never seem to get there anymore because we run into the wall of "my way or the highway" responses. And another great discussion dies off into another confusing gray area. I am asking for patience and respect of others contributions. Consider each suggestion as one of many to chose from, not only one. There are so many good ideas here. We should feel encouraged to contribute, not intimidated. Barry

This discussion might have more value if the Scoutmasters preaching about real leadership weren't also bragging in other discussions of coaching their same scouts through EBORs. They trust their scouts to lead through the chaos of patrol method, but they don't trust them enough to review their scouting experience to a board of strangers. I know, I know, I'm a cranky old man. But shesh, our discussions are really getting bizarre. We are making scouting way too hard for the average adult volunteer. Barry

Qwazse, I believe that the vast majority of Scoutmasters would say their program fits your model. Barry