Eagledad

Just like everything else in the program, what a scout gets out of the Advancement Method is based largely from the vision and methods the adults use to guide the program. The challenge for adults is that each scout has a different vision of himself as a scout. Just about all the discussions on this forum deal with how we balance each individual boy's dream of scouting along with the adults' goals what they want the scouts to get out of the program. Guiding a program of different personalities is complicated and challenging. Working with the computer geek nerdy kid who hates camping along side the outdoorsy super camper kid requires: a lot of patience, thinking out of the box, and a great deal of humility. Both those scouts eventually earned their Eagle while I was a Scoutmaster, but the geeky scout never learned to enjoy camping and the super camper only tolerated a minimum requirement of advancement bureaucracy. The answer to the OPs question is as easy or complicated as each scouts personality. Eagle94's and Qwazse's gave some good suggestions. Barry

A positive action of growth in my mind would have started admitting remorse, not finding the next step to getting the Eagle. Barry

In my mind, zero tolerance is acting on bad behavior without empathy. I believe MattR was very empathetic when he guided the scout toward what he felt was the best course of growth in the circumstances. MattR was trying to teach a life lesson and I would have reacted very much the same. At some point in each person's life, they have to be treated as adults. I believe a 17 year old boy is no longer a boy, he is a man. MattR's scout was lucky because MattR gave him an opportunity to act humbly and start a process of healing for him and those who suffered from his act. Instead the young man chose the path of pride and will suffer for a long time. Some here say kids today are same as yesterday, but those same posters also whine about helicopter parents. You can't have one without the other. My observation of young adults today is their lack of humility. Pride is the antonym of humility, and without humility, humans are stuck wallowing in an egocentric world. At some point, our sons and daughters have to make adult decisions and learn to react to those decisions with outward virtuous actions . I once met a teacher who preached to his parent friends over and over that we have to put our kids in as many decision making situations that we can so they they will practice and developed into decision making experts by they time they are adults. That is exactly what the Scouting program is about and why I am so passionate about it. But Scouting can't do it all, our community is supposed to guide our young people as well. Barry

I have always felt that programs that make a people feel good about themselves are proud to wear the uniform. In fact, if I saw a scout who was dressed differently than he typically dressed, I learned over the years he might be having a bad day. I got in the habit of asking those scouts if everything was alright and more often than not, something was going on at home. Once was a scout who just found out his parents were divorcing. Another scout was being bullied at school. The uniform is a great indicator of how a scout feels about himself. Barry

Scouting must be local because a lot of lines were crossed in that list around here. Barry

It's probably some of that, but our adults don't give direction in wearing a uniform, they help the scouts understand their decision making process. Our scouts are guided to use the Scout Handbook for direction of uniforming. If they aren't following the handbook, I would suggest they are making a wrong decision. While I do believe some of what you say is part of their reasoning, I found that boy run adult leaders tend to work with scouts individually and in more as a passive counselor style. Adults in less boy run troops tend to proactively counsel scouts more directly and in groups. Example is telling an assembled troop how to properly dress for meetings. Adults who are more directive aren't looking for opportunities to guide a scout in their decision process, they are looking for a sharp looking troop. Now, I would agree that a BOR could be a gray area because it is not in the handbook. I would then ask the scout's opinion on the matter. I might have an opinion myself, but I certainly would give effort to understanding the scout's opinion if it is different from mine because that wouldn't be the first time a scout has changed my opinion. Barry

I enjoy these discussions if for nothing more than pointing out that over the years I have found that uniforming is the most difficult Method for the adults to have a consensus in using it as a tool for developing character, fitness and citizenship. I have also observed over the years that the more boy run a patrol functions, the less uniformed they appear to outsiders. Can someone explain that? I usually leave these discussions pointing out that the Scout Handbook gives the scout clear guidance on when, where and how to wear the uniform. But, I admit I haven't reviewed the last couple of revisions. Are those guidelines still in todays Scout Handbook? And if they are, then why do we adults have such a tough time with this Method? Barry

Yes, I wasn't sure where NJ was going with his statement. Humans base most of their decisions from ideology, and I agree sometimes those choices become political. The gay scouts discussion is a ideological discussion that just happens to be political at this time in our cultural history. What is interesting is that we generally don't change our ideals, but politics many times forces changes of our habits and actions relating to those ideals. I kind of feel like maybe that is what is going on here with the flag ceremony. Barry

I come from the generation of my PL picking me up on the way to a Patrol meeting. For an eleven year old, that was so cool. Barry

Start by asking the scout. Barry

I agree, being an Engineer, I like to be as factual as possible. Here is one of many sources to the generalization of perception. This is just one of many sources where the facts, in theory, point to a reasonable argument, and why the cloud will always hang low on the topic. http://hotair.com/archives/2016/11/07/video-obama-encouraging-illegal-immigrants-vote/ Barry

I'm not sure I understand NJ, didn't the OP ask for opinions from the list? As long as the replies are courteous and kind, isn't a discussion of the OPs request an appropriate use of the forum? Help us here. Barry

What a bizarre discussion. I can honestly say I'm shocked adult Scout leaders are having trouble with this. I'm with the others here in missing the old days when political correctness didn't get in the way of scouting. Around here Scouting is considered part of our community. Community service isn't about hours, but about participation. Barry

My observation over the years is that adults struggle the most with the "Uniform" method more than any other of the Eight Methods because they don't know how to apply it for growth within the intent of Character, fitness and citizenship. But, as a teacher of teachers, I also point out that how the Uniform method is applied has important value for the Scouts' growth. Adults must be just as careful pushing the "minimum" uniform because their scouts will miss out on some of those growing opportunities. Barry

I found that local social pressures drive many of these rules. I know this sounds silly, but the movie Rambo drove a lot of the sheath knife restrictions back in the day because so many scouts were showing up with machete size knives. Many districts and councils were more reasonable with size restrictions. As the popularity of the movie has moved own, so has the popularity of the jumbo camp knives. But the rules are still in print. And with the adult leadership pool growing larger with adults who have little or no camping experience, fewer adults see any reason to remove those rules. What I find ironic with adults today is that most perceive the saw as the safest camping tool when in reality it is the number one cause of basic camping woods tools for visiting the emergency room. The axe and hatchet have the lowest record for emergency room visits with the knife in the middle. I teach at adult training to always always where heavy leather gloves while using the saw. Backpacking saws are the worst because their small appearance gives them a sense of false safety. Barry

Over the years, we had several white gas accidents with our Coleman stoves. We found the tanks wear out over time and leak fuel. We never had an injury from the accidents, but a lot of extra training was required. Eventually they were replaced with propane stoves when we changed to a backpacking troop. We haven't had an accident since in 20 years. Barry

Hmm interesting, I have a hand full of post from the moderators who were directed to discourage my processes of new knowledge in our discussions. I guess not all disagreements rate up to insightful. Barry

LOL, I GUESS SO

Please give an example.

There is a much mutual admiration in OA as there is in a Patrol and Troop adult leaders. The consistent behavior of scouts are a reflection of the troop adults. The BSA program guides scouts to live by a code of the Oath and Law. How the adults interpret the oath and law is what outsiders will observe from the scouts. Barry

Your perspective is backwards, "best of the best" are observations of outsiders looking at the actions of Arrowmen. OA is about selfless service. "I am better than you" doesn't fit the selfless ideal of the OA. Barry

Call it what you will, the statement is accurate. Scouts limitations on the decisions in the program are only limited by the adults. Barry

Hard times are ahead, the economy hasn't improved in the last nine years. Typically the first place that suffers when budgets tighten are donations to non-prophets. Barry

A reality of just about all youth programs in our culture is that the adults drive the vision and activities for the youth. So the activities troop adults allow for their scouts' (lets say OA) are dictated and limited by the adults' biases and prejudices. As for how we felt about Arrowmen, you simply didn't experience the OA program in our area during the 1960s and 70s. Only two scouts per troop (age 14 or older) could be voted each year as a candidate by their peers. Typically those two very experienced scouts were respected equally as much for their humility of servanthood as they were for their leadership and backwoods skills. Hardly self-congratulatory types. Barry

I think that says it best. I remember watching a new scout dragging his sleeping bag trough the mud at a 1995 Ordeal. Arrowmen used to be considered the special forces of scouts. They earned the reputation of being the best of the best and carried a lot more clout than Eagles. My observation of how our lodge lost it luster was the adults, who were elected in the OA while they were adult leaders, became the advisers. They simply took on too much of an active role instead of an adviser role. Kind of the same trend we saw with Patrol Method. Barry