Eagledad

I don't know why they would have watered the program back down except they found that Bear leaders weren't crossing over to Webelos because they didn't want to do that outdoor part of the program. Cooking and sleeping in the heat or cold doesn't appeal to a lot of adults. We saw this problem at the council level. Units were forced to find new Webelos leaders and those leaders tended to lack the enthusiasm for planning and leading a fun program. Most of them only did minimal training. We tried several approaches including asking troops to help with the Dens. But, that was an extra responsibility that many troops were reluctant to take on. And, there was no planned program for it, which made it more problematic. Barry

Personally I don' think graduating early or late makes much difference. Our data shows that Webelos in a fun program will join a troop whenever their crossover comes. Scouts who are in a boring den with a burned out leader are likely to quit after webelos no matter what. Webelos pretty much know what they are going to do by the Fall of their last year. As I said, nationally less than 50 percent of Webelos IIs actively join a troop. That high rate is the result of a demanding 5 year program on the adults. A little more perspective is that in most cases, scouts go where their parents encourage them to go. So, the issue isn't burned out or bored scouts. The issue is burned out parents. As has been said, 5 years is way to long for a cub program. It's harder on the adults than the scouts. This sounds off balanced, but if the pack changed its activities to make it enjoyable for parents, the crossover numbers would increase dramatically at all ages. I know this because we did it. If the BSA wants to make a dramatic jump in membership at ALL ages, National needs to trim the Cub program to 3.5 years. Barry

I approached expectations and maturity by teaching the scout to set his own goals. I started by teaching his first skill, maybe the square knot. After he mastered the knot, I asked him if he would like to learn more? Which knots? And set a goal to when. It's easy with something like the knots because he can pick any knot and learn it immediately. But, as the scouts works toward higher level skills that take more time, I encouraged him to set a date and write in his book. There is no penalty for not meeting the date, it's not a test, I'm just getting him in the habit of setting goals, no matter how small. I want our scouts to be dreamers and creators. By the time they get to a leadership age, they have practiced and developed some level of skills for setting goals and timelines. And, it is the scouts initiative to pick the goal and create the timeline. I taught in the adult leadership classes that the scouts should be dreaming of their scouting future and build goals and timelines, especially in advancement. In fact, advancement is perfect for scouts envisioning themselves in their future of the program. We don't want a scout to follow the adults dream of being the ideal scout, We want them to dream of the ideal scout they want to be, and to initiate setting goals toward their dream, at their pace. The average age of scouts were awarded Eagle in our troop was 16. That is because they weren't really all that interested getting the eagle until 14 or 15 years old. They were having too much fun camping, hiking, canoeing, and so on. And then when they had the maturity to see themselves on top of that mountain, they had the skills to plan their goals and timeline. Which in reality, is the adult skill we want them to have anyways. Barry

I'm not sure what to think about this. I'm up for discussion, but I believe 95% percent of scouters couldn't even quote the Aims (character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness). or Methods (ideals, Patrols, Outdoor Programs, Advancement, Association with Adults, Personal growth, Leadership Development and Uniform). .And, those who can quote the Aims and Methods generally believe that the adults are responsible for both the Aims and Methods. I don't think knowing the Aims and Methods is the problem. I personally believe that not knowing how to use Aims and Methods is the greater problem. And I blame our National Leaders. First example, I purposely left out one of the Aims, "Leadership Development". How can leadership development be tool for developing character habits and goal of developing moral and ethical decision makers at the same time? Talk about confusing and complex. I'm ashamed for our National Scouters ignorance of our program. If the top leaders don' t get it, how can they translate it to adults in the trenches? I fully agree with your suggestions of "Hike. Camp. Explore. A variety of activities every month including a weekend overnight. New experiences regularly. Past favorites repeated. Higher experiences periodically". You get it. And I believe those are synonyms of the 8 Methods we need to pass along to new scouters. But, there is more to developing a scout than your list like duty, serving and honor. Those are the noble actions of the scout law . Part of the problem is that adults don't respect youths mature nature to want to serve and grow in character. In fact, you will find that puberty drives that desire of youth, but troops don't provide activities to exercise it. I tried something with my PLC's that I didn't know where it would go. I challenge our PLC to set goals at each campout that would Develop Character, Practice Citizenship and develop mental and physical fitness. I gave them the Aims, of which I believe really belong to the adults. But I was trying to build a troop where the adults didn't have to show up for the program to function. It turned out to be no big deal to the scouts. Character development was working together to make decisions. Really what that turned out to be was scouts respectfully listening to each other. Citizenship was doing community service projects like picking up trash monthly by a section of road or camp improvement projects at campsites. There were many others, but these were routine. Fitness was easy because the PLC just planned hikes, swimming and other typical outdoor exercises. But, here is what I observed that surprised me; the PLC got use to planning camp service projects on every campout. They would ask the owner or manager of the area we camped for some service needed to clean up or improve the area. Camps always need some maintenance and clean up and a troop of 80 scouts can get a lot done in an hour or so. Well, when we went to summer camp, I noticed the scouts planning campsite projects just a couple days into the week. Nobody was asking, they just started doing projects that improved our campsite. One project was building retention walls where the rain was washing the ground away. That was a troop effort that took almost the whole week. The camp director was amazed because nobody asked and it was a large effort. The adults didn't encourage the scouts to take on these projects. It wasn't even our the adult radar. The scouts just got in the habit of doing service projects and initiated the tasks themselves, without even asking the camp director or troop leaders. The projects weren't burdens that required begging, The scouts found the work to be rewarding at several different levels. The monthly trash pickup turned into opportunities for young scouts to lead for experience. They weren't getting leadership credit, but it was opportunities of experience. I took advantage of it by training new scouters to assist the scout for the experience of letting the scout lead and work the task and only stepping in when the scout requested. The activities motivated from aim of citizenship was turning into a huge growing opportunities for the adults and scouts. Now, these things aren't always as easy at they sound, but all I'm saying is if the program is struggling because the scouts aren't having fun, it might be because the scouts aren't being allowed to define fun. And, a program doesn't need to ignore actions of character like discipline, regimental tasks and schedule routines to be a fun program. Scouting for adults is hard and it takes practice. But, if the adults don't like what they see, they should fix it. And more than likely the change needs to be simpler and giving the scouts more ownership. Stepping back is hard for adults. It has to be practiced to be perfected. And it will never be perfect. The simple issue is the program has to be fun, but the scouts should be involved of defining fun. That doesn't mean the actions that define the nobility of scouting should be ignored for fear of not being fun. They just need to be defined as part of scouting and developed in a fun way. Barry

This discussion is the cart before the horse. What is the purpose of scouting? What is the purpose of the activities? I learned as I gained experience to measure if each activities was providing a positive growth opportunity for the scout. Mostly character, but other growth as well. By measuring each activity, I was forcing myself to understand the goals of the program, as well as insure the activities were presented in a manor that would produce growth. If the adults don't know where they are going, how do they know if they are doing it wrong? HOWEVER, scouting is game with a purpose and if the game isn't fun, then what is the point of the purpose if nobody comes. I made two deals with our scouts after each SPL election: 1. If I can't justify the purpose of the activity toward growth, they can take it out of the program. No questions asked. 2. If the activity is not fun, it must be changed. We adults are here to build ethical and moral decision makers. We are given the sub goals of Aims, and the tools of methods. So, we must do at least that much. Easier said than done, but, if the SM tells the scouts scouts THEY must plan a program using the 8 methods, then the scouts are in control of how to do that. Now, a lot of adults don't like that idea because it gives scouts freedom to create chaos. But, my experience is that they take "True" responsibility very seriously and want it to work. If the adult discipline themselves to wait for the question (Help!), then the scouts are open to guidance. In the early years of our troop, we were watching the new SPL try to control the group during an exercise. But, the scouts were getting louder to the point of out of control. That is when the frustrated SPL went to the Scoutmaster and asked for help. The SM simply said, what is the one tool in your hand that will grab the groups attention. Then he stood back. The SPL put up his Sign and the group eventually was under control again. It doesn't always go that way, but if the adults first believe the scouts will take responsibility seriously when they are treated as adult equals, a relationship starts where both the adults and scouts want to make the program work. Sounds funny, but the scouts were surprised that I expected them to change ANYTHING that wasn't fun. I gave them permission and off we went. Of course there are the stubborn scouts who don't want to be there, but their parents have different ideas. The SM has to be creative. I asked our nerdy smart computer scout, who hated scouting, to create and lead a course at the Council Scout Show that teaches adults how to use computer technology for helping the program. That was 1995, so that might work today, but you get my point. I awarded that scout his Eagle a couple years later. And sometimes, parents have to come to reality of their kids dreams and goals. Scouting his hard, but if ;you put in the effort, scouting is extremely rewarding. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I don’t think so. I’ve had to balance many of your posts over the years because you present micro analogies. You basically take local data, which is a sliver of the overall picture and present a confident analogy as the overall big picture. It’s not. General references can only be interpreted as reflections of personal biases at best. That’s ok if the author starts their opinion with “In humble opinion” ………… . But, when the analysis is intended to sway general opinion, we’ll, you know. Barry

This must be local or recent. When I was tracking crossovers 20 years ago, an average of 50% of Webelos crossed over to troops in our council. National average at the time was slightly less than 50%. We did not track AOL because that wasn’t important for us. I can’t remember the average for 1st year scouts dropping out, BUT, 1st year dropouts has been the highest dropout rate of all BSA ages since National has been tracking that data. At least since the 60s. Barry

I think it’s a cultural thing. I worked a lot with the 14 to 22 year olds and gained so much respect from them, as well as pleasure with the experience. They are the noble product of patrol method and have so much to give back. But, our culture expects them to go out into the world and get educated and find their place in the community. Like some here, many at National and others outside looking in see scouting as nothing more than an after school babysitting program. Move on from youthful play time and get busy with serious adult life. I agree the BSA doesn’t give the older scouts any vision of scouting beyond 17 and that cripples the adult’s vision as well. We can do more at the local level. I did do more. But, the effort is an uphill challenge that wears one down. Can you imagine working with dozens of Eagle94s? The experience is a reward from God and makes all the hard work at the younger ages worth it. Barry

I do agree with your Cub thoughts. Especially the squirrel age. Squirrel? Barry

I’m now sure how any of that enhances the program towards growth, I’m willing to to listen. But, I don’t like how they separate the ages after the cub ages. Character growth is very dependent on older scouts mentorship and they don’t do a good job there. The UK scouts believe in Patrol Method, but without the older mentors, their program relies heavily on adult mentorship. And that is not the same. Barry

How many lives are saved from the program. I’m a personal witness to many. I wouldn’t be standing up for it if it weren’t true.

Some here are supporting killing the program. I believe scouting is a noble program that adds good moral decision makers to the world. Barry

When folks want to kill a program as a result of personal harm, context and truth is very important. Barry

One type of light! I’m travel in Europe at moment and they use the same Red Yellow Green traffic signals as the rest of the world. And, we are warned to watch out for drivers who run red lights. The whole world knows the rules and they know when the rules are broken. if you want to keep using the 82,000 scouts sexually abused number (which I don’t believe), can you include the total number of BSA members during the same time? I don’t know what that is, but you seem to have insight in these details. Barry

I disagree. Barry

Isn’t that like saying traffic lights don’t work because someone got hurt by a drunk driver running a red light. Scouting is very safe. Not perfect, but very safe. Barry

Of course. We would expect nothing less from his dad. Barry

My experience for yours! Should everyone in the nation sacrifice their education for the one abused student? We could go on and on, should we sacrifice aviation for one crash victim? Should we sacrifice cars? Your question doesn’t have a pragmatic relevance. Your trying use moralism to raise your anger above the nobility of scouting’s mission. But your question isn’t in context with the overall good of scouting’s mission anymore than the abuse student in public school. Bad things happen to good people, but the world doesn’t come to an end. Barry

The experience is making moral and ethical decision makers of millions of young people for future generations and cultures. Barry

I was just thinking about this question with all the abuse in the public school system. In fact, you could ask the question of any organization, associated, or public institute. One victim of harm is a crime against humanity. Should the National public school system be shutdown over one victim. Maybe five. Dare not that we even consider 10 victims against all the good that has come from the public school system over the last 100 years. The question has no relevance forward balance and never will with the hurt with any victim of unfair harm in any system intended to advance positive growth of its members because it doesn’t take in the positive accompaniments of the goals. if 99 percent of the community doesn’t relate to a victims pain, it’s because the 99 percent didn’t feel that experience That doesn’t mean they don’t feel compassionate. They do. Barry

Examples please! Barry

This is part of it, but patrol method is also developing habits that enable immature decision makers an environment to practice choices based from the scout law. That in of itself is chaotic enough. Some regimented procedures provide scouts a safe place to make decisions based on the law instead of emotion. Structure is kindness. And when an individual builds the habit of making decisions based from trustworthy, helpful, friendly, …….., then they have the maturity to try it differently to improve the results, just like my kids are doing as parents. Barry

I think you might be confusing inclusion and diversity. They aren't the same thing. Anyone who lives by the Oath and Law will do the right thing. no-matter the differences of the other person. That being said, how do you know non-white's and non-males to be a problem, I would be interested to see your data because I know the non-males around here make up close to 50% of the membership at the adult level. So your data will be interesting. As for Woodbadge making a difference, well, hmm. I don't see it. Maybe I'm looking to much at the big picture. However, because I have seen it locally, I believe the BSA would have a more profound effect on the community with diversity if they spent a little more time preaching and teaching Patrol Method and Scout independent decision making. The best teacher is one's last mistake. Barry

It's just a way for the BSA to check the progressive. box. I'm not sure what population you are speaking of, but this requirement isn't going to change it. The BSA has been working to get into other demographics like inner city, but the effort is a challenge that requires a lot of resources. Barry

This is really good, thanks Inquisitivescouter. I used to highlight to scouts and adult leaders in training that the Scout Oath and Law are framed in diversity. The Scout states that they under their honor they will do their best to do their duty of treating all unique individuals under the one Scout Law. Barry