Eagledad

Agreed, and may I suggest to additionally add the information to your training syllabuses. I learned over the years that if you want to educate the district as a whole of changes, do it through training. Sadly a very small percentage of units attend RTs, but just about all adult leaders have to attend training. It's amazing how a district of units develops bad habits in policies and procedures over the years. I attacked them through training and saw a general acceptance of the changes within about three years. One last thing, back everything up with BSA source references so that your information has integrity. Barry

We had a 16 year old life scout transfer in our troop only needing 5 mbs to complete his Eagle requirements. No real problems until his dad approached me at a troop meeting. He wasn't being aggressive, but more inquisitive. His son asked our Advancement Leader to finish his Eagle paperwork and send it to the district to set up the EBOR. Our Advancement Leader replied that the scouts are responsible for all the paperwork and sending it to the district. We would of course double check his work to make sure it was all in order, but the responsibility to send it to district completed was his. The scout is also responsible for scheduling the EBOR and to telling the SM so that he can introduce the scout to the board. This scout's previous troop not only scheduled all the scouts MBs Eagle Project, they also took care of and stored ALL their scouts' advancement paperwork from the first day they started. So, he didn't have any expectation or experience in recording, storing and documenting ANY of his advancement requirements. They even took care of documenting the Eagle Project that they found, approved and assigned to the scout. Not knowing his son's troops policies, I sat down with dad and explained that our policy and routine was for scouts to control all their advancement from signing up for requirements down to handling all the Eagle documentation. I told him that we believe the Eagle represents the character and qualities of an adult, so it seems silly that another adult should take care of their business. I remember the dad smiling and shaking his head in agreement. That was when he explained how his son's previous troop handled advancement and advancement records. I suggested that since his son doesn't have any practice in taking care of his personal documentation, he could certainly request for some advice from the troop or his family. Dad thanked me for the few minutes of my time and I got a call from his son a couple months later inviting me to his EBOR. I worked with a couple hundred scouts and about 20 Eagles as a scout leader in our troop and not one of them ever complained about our troop advancement policy's and procedures. They didn't know any different. To be honest, I think we thought all troops did it about the same way. I learned differently when I joined the forums. I think the key is start teaching scouts from their first day how to take the initiative for advancing as well as how to take care of their records and paperwork. I can see it being a problem for older scouts who have not practiced those habits. I am not suggesting troops make a sudden 180 degree change in their advancement policies, but I can attest that the scouts can handle it if the adults can. Barry

OK, here is what my CPA says about this, "it's not worth anybody's time to worry about it because so little is gained, especially the IRS. The IRS doesn't have the time to review, adjust, and teach, every violating unit because the benefit for them is A LOT less than the cost of their time. Since she has worked with a few scout units (boy scouts and girl scouts), she would guess that 95 percent of them don't have a clue what they are doing. If the adults don't know they are doing it wrong, how would the boys? Barry

Davids post really hit home with me. I had a lot of passion, youth experience and idealism when I started, but I was lucky that forums were just getting started so I could balance my "actual experiences" with different (better) ideas. And I did find myself abusing the time between God, family and scouting. It came to a head after about three years into my Scoutmasting gig where I was forced to make tough decisions. But one thing I must add, scouting helped give me the street smarts that confirmed my beliefs in my faith. Scouting and family grounded my relationship with God. I didn't expect that when I joined the BSA. Barry

Do a troop roast. Of course it should be more of an opportunity for troop members to stand and say a few kind words. But a fun or funny story or two makes it more enjoyable. Connect the roast to the end of the troop COH. Barry

I didn't want to high jack the "Twenty Skills That Are Dying" so I'm starting this one. Chadamus and I started getting into the challenges of new scout leaders and it got me thinking about my challenges as the new troop leader of a new troop. The two other adults and I had a pretty good troop experiences as a youth, so we pretty much had and idea the direction we wanted to go with the new troop. But our first big challenge was the NSP and troop guides. Between the three of us new leaders, we had around 17 years experience as a youth. But the NSP was so new, it changed how to implement the Patrol Method of our youth. We gave it a good try because we assumed it was the new and improved patrol method. But because of our youth experiences and expectations, we couldn't make it work. We gave up after three years. So what were your challenges as a new scout leader? Barry

Yes, maybe, but we found that adults with a youth scouting experience had two to three year advantage in leading a troop. Skills are big part of that, but the confidence of just camping in the woods with scouts is a big advantage as well. Barry

Yes, the London poll hints at why scouting is changing, even in the U.S. It wasn't all that long ago that our council calculated that over 70 percent of new adult leaders never had a scouting or weekend tent camping experience as a youth. Honestly I think the number is closer to 80 percent. So as we have these training, patrol method and boy run discussions, we need to keep in mind that new adults reading our post have almost no skills for outdoor camping with a group of boys. While patrol method appears simple in its description, it is extremely complicated to apply for adults with no scouting experience. Barry

Many of us have found ourselves in this situation. We handled it by asking for meeting with the leaders and laying out the concerns. In many cases, the charter leaders typically aren't the individuals who work personally with the troop, so they don't have an opinion one way or the other. The solution for us, and several other charters in our area with the same circumstances, was changing the charter individual responsible for the troop to someone who is more pro BSA. Also, ask your DE for advice as well. They deal with this situation more often then they would like to admit. Barry

Yes, my thoughts are along the same line. The PLs are responsible for how they respond to behavior in our troop. I never suggested cutting off corners of totin chip cards to our scouts, but I have seen corners missing. Probably some senior scout's dad reminiscing of the old days. Barry

I'm getting old and cranky and have come to find these evil parent discussions distasteful. I have no problem with venting a recent experience to an understanding-been-there-done-that audience because that's a healthy way to ease frustrations. But these threads more often than not grow into generalanti-parent or anti-adult rants. You would have thought that Scoutmasters were born perfect and above it all. We can be assured that we Scoutmasters are just as mortal and with same flaws as the little people. I believe and taught young Scoutmasters that if they want the support of parents, they need to spend as much time working with the parents as their sons in the purpose and processes of the program. Scoutleading is hard and even the very best leaders screw up. When our egos grow big enough to block our humility to see parents as equals, we become dangerous as their sons' mentors. Sorry for the rant. Barry

The reason you haven't heard of tethering sky lanterns is because they can't handle the weight of the tether. The small flame provides just barely enough thrust to lift them. Barry

That would be like asking Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi to leave "Grandmother" out of their political statements. Barry

As a Scoutmaster, I struggled with adult training because I believe most students don't leave with all that much more than what they came with. What do they get? Well in most cases new friends and a respect for living outdoors overnight. After that, they go back to their units and learn what the units need for them to learn. Everyone reveres the old Woodbadge Course as a great teacher of the patrol method, or troop method or whatever. But it was not intended to be a course to teach those methods, it was designed as a course to demonstrate different styles of teaching. The old course ran into problems when the majority of participants were never scouts. As a result of their ignorance, they took all the activities of the course literally and duplicated their own troop program from that experience. As SSScout pointed out, the course unintentionally drove the program more adult run. So the BSA rightly killed it and the course today is the result. But as a SM, I dreaded the passionate newly trained adults who were really more eager to experience the program as a scout than an adult. We are boy run patrol method troop. The adults are usually 100 yards away and not required to teach, train or even role model because the scouts do most of those responsibilities. So I found myself changing their enthusiasm toward a more boring direction of observing and cheer leading. Oh, we do advise, mentor and advise now and then, but more by request or reactionary mode. There was no room for adult Boy Scout wanabees in my program. I needed adults who respected and understood the value of SCOUTS making bad decisions and developing good habits from those decisions. That doesn't mean I don't respect adult leader training. I was a trainer at the Council, District and Unit Levels. I created several curriculums with the intention of enhancing the learning experience. But my approach to educating adults was the same as my approach for the scouts; I tried to give them experiences that lead to self confidence, not expertise of skills. For example I spent more time at IOLS teaching the adults how to not be afraid of woods tools than how to be an expert with the tools. Training classes don' t have time to turn ignorance into expertise, so I tried to give them something that actually did stick with them after the course. I believe the real value of learning in Wood Badge comes from the participants Ticket Items because they have to actually practice the subject. All that being said, our adults did enjoy our program. We often have 6 to 10 adults camping with us just because it was a relaxing outdoor atmosphere. And after learning how to observe at a distance without interfering, the adults found a respect for watching their sons grow in a patrol method program. And once the light was turned on, they were as passionate for boys learning from their decisions as the Scoutmaster. Barry

Good post. You put in better words of what I said earlier. I've not scoutmastered for a little over a dozen years now, but the difference in the challenges are huge. A few scouts during my time had phones, but nobody had smart phones. Our challenge was those small hand video games (I can't remember what they were called). Money? While we were getting in to the money card era, cash was still an easy and accepted method for patrol budget responsibilities. I've often said here that the troop program is "Real Life Scaled Down to a Boys Size". The troop is an arena where scouts can learn from their decisions without fear of being ridiculed for the results of there decisions. But I honestly don't know how Scoutmasters today work toward developing moral and ethical (and thrifty) decision makers when smart phones and credit cards are considered the norm in that arena. I find myself a student of your experiences today. That doesn't mean I won't preach (sorry) the idealism of Aims and Methods because I do believe they are still the targets which keep adults going the right direction, but I do respect the challenge. I am watching and learning from your experiences with these challenges. But even as a student in the newest methods of scouting, I still have your back in developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity. After all, I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Patrol Method? If I may, I'll play the devils advocate here. If the parents are paying for their son's entertainment (fun stuff), what are the limitations of funds for the entertainment? Who sets the limit? Does the Patrol Method lose some identity when the parents (adults) say "enough". Is there a point when the Patrol Method becomes just a title for an afterschool program? I agree with David, but living in a disposable world doesn't diminish the life lesson of being thrifty. Our troop is in an upper middle class area, so funding isn't an issue for most of our families. But I found that if scouts were pushed to fit their program under a budget, their priorities and interests changed from what their parents wanted them to do to what they wanted to do. You would be surprised at the number of scouts who go on high adventure treks because their parents pushed them. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but we seem to talk a lot on this forum about adults giving scouts space for patrol method. Adults can have a huge effect on patrol method simply by their choices of what they will fund. I'm not advocating for or against parents funding the scouts experience. I'm just trying to bring it more in perspective of the scouting program and the goals of the BSA. Barry

This is a great idea. Barry

The nature of boys, and most men in general is to take the path of least resistance. Path of least resistance in my mind is another definition of thrifty. Where adults struggle in giving scout independence for making decisions is length of time scouts need for learning from their choices. Boy run is real life in very slow motion. We adults with life experiences already know how to make better choices simply by the wisdom developed from our previous choices. The scouts have yet to have that experience. So in just about all things we want scouts to learn, it's a give and take on how long the adults are willing to wait for scouts to learn right choices through the series of wrong choices. The lesson of thrifty is based mainly from the struggle of fitting the cost of our desires within the limitations of our funds. The more a scout gets his funding from outside sources like his parents, the less he is likely to understand the limitation of funds. As I said earlier, the scouts who earned the money of their patrol equipment are a lot more motivated to respect and take better care of that equipment. Their lesson of thrifty was a lot more effective than the new scouts two years down the road who inherited that same equipment simply by joining the troop. My point is how a troop approaches teaching the lesson of any of the traits in the Scout Law depends on how much patience the adults are willing to give the scouts in their independence to make the series of choices. All adult leaders want their program to be a place for growth in character and fitness for the scouts. But how much growth is not easy for us because it can be a long road. I know because I have been there. Barry

Our council once did a poll of Scoutmasters to learn why they felt the Council Youth Leadership course JLTC (NYLT) wasn't working. Top on the list the Scoutmasters said there was a disconnect between the troop leaders and what the course was teaching the scouts. How could they support their scouts if they don't know what they learned. blw2, have you asked the Scoutmaster (or CC, I guess) what they would like you to bring back from the course to help the troop program? What can IOLS teach you that your troop can't or hasn't already taught you? Barry

When we first started our troop, we had nothing. No equipment, nothing. So we all went out and did some car washes to get some fast cash. Later on as the troop grew a prospered, the new scouts didn't treat the equipment with the same respect as the scouts who worked to buy it, and they resented those scouts somewhat. As our troop progressed toward a backpacking style patrol method troop, the patrols have become more independent with their responsibilities and their patrol equipment. The patrols with the best equipment typically earned the funds to purchase and maintain it. Respect in just about all things has to be earned, if that makes sense. And for me, that is a great life lesson to learn. All that to say there is a balance to how much stress adults are willing to accept with the level of independence they give the scouts. Scout growth cost the adults in the stress of watching scouts flounder through their scouting experience. Your adults are at that point of how much stress they are willing to accept in giving the scouts the independence of making decisions with the funds. If the scouts take on more of the funding responsibility, your program will become more of a pay-as-you-go. Pay-as-you-go is less stress on the Troop Treasure, but more on the SM and ASMs. It really depends on how much growth you want from your scouts. I have a lot of experience all around this subject and I can't really advice a directions because it all depends on the willingness of your adults to accept the stress of scouts making their own decisions. Let me add that coming from a troop where the scouts handle these challenges, the cost of food is way down on the stress meter because scouts learn to deal with food and the cost pretty quickly. As I said, in just about all things, scouts take the path of least resistance. Barry

If you were to come to our meetings, I think you would find the boys making these decisions. Barry

Maybe because our troop is very patrol method, but we found that buying and storing bulk food to save cost risk compromising the growth that is gained from the responsibility of managing food and cost for a patrol. Higher cost turned out to be appropriate in some cases as waste and storage space became an issue. AND, the more the scouts tried to work toward bulk, the harder it was for the patrols to be independent of each other in planning menus and purchasing the food. Buying bulk didn't work very well for our patrol method program. I'm sure there are ways to fix that problem and I am open to suggestions. But looking back at the experience, I think it is important to remember that scouts in general like to go the path of least resistance. Barry

Interesting post blw2, I wished I had seen it 30 years ago. Thanks Barry

As the scout leader of hundreds of scouts over the years, I run into a lot of strange adults who have to introduce themselves as scout so-and-so, followed with how they really enjoyed me as a leader. Can't help but blush, it's the best. But, just about as many parents of scouts also approach and thank me for time with their son. They then follow up with what their son is doing now as a husband and parent. I never get tired of hearing about our scouts' adult lives. The parents of one scout stands out because they asked me to pin the Eagle Badge on their son at his ECOR. I told them that tradition in our troop is typically left to the scout's father. Both parents were direct when they insisted that they and their son felt I deserved to have that honor. I was so taken by their request that I honestly didn't know what to say. There were no words to express honor and humility in that moment. Yes, I was been paid back in full a long time ago. Barry